Ep. 31 Relationships and The Courtroom

There are many members of a court staff that make a courtroom work efficiently and effectively.  In Tennessee, circuit court judges may have three to four county courtrooms to manage with different staff members in each courtroom. In this episode of Tennessee Court Talk, AOC Communications Director Samantha Fisher sits down with Chancellor J.B. Cox of the 17th Judicial District in Tennessee to discuss relationships in the courtroom and the amount of communication it takes for each staff to work with a judge during a court proceeding. This episode was recorded at the 2024 Spring Tennessee Judicial Conference. 

This episode is intended for judges and other members of the legal community.   

Produced by Nick Morgan, Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts

Transcript

00;00;00;08 - 00;00;08;14
Chancellor Cox
The judges relationship with each deputy clerk. With each bailiff. Each attorney. With each litigant. And how that's approached. Matters.

00;00;08;17 - 00;00;29;27
Host
Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk. This is a podcast produced by the Administrative Office of the courts. I'm Samantha Fisher, the communications director for the AOC. And today we're delighted to have Chancellor J.B. Cox. He is the chancellor for the 17th Judicial District, which includes Bedford, Lincoln, Marshall and Moore counties. Thanks for joining us, Chancellor.

00;00;29;28 - 00;00;30;23
Chancellor Cox
Glad to be here.

00;00;30;26 - 00;00;59;14
Host
I've really enjoyed listening to your presentations that involve relationships in the courtroom and and thinking and talking about all the different people that make a courtroom work efficiently and effectively. And I should mention, you know, for those of you listening today, this is probably an episode best suited for other chancellors and judges. You know, as we consider, you know, all of the people that make this work well and the importance of what goes on in many ways before and after a hearing. Right?

00;00;59;16 - 00;01;24;13
Chancellor Cox
Sure. I would I would encourage judges to, to listen to this if they get an opportunity. And I think there might be value for everybody, hopefully, in terms of what we try to communicate today. Frankly, it's a it's a team concept and I think it needs to be looked at that way. And I think that hopefully we'll be able to portray a picture that is accurate, both accurate and something that people can aspire to, that duplicate.

00;01;24;15 - 00;01;44;27
Host
I've heard other judges say, you know, everybody deserves their day in court. And do you want the impression to be left that you were, you know, only a fair judge or a fair judge and a kind judge? And starting with that. Why don't we talk about the relationship between a judge and his or her bailiffs? Sorry about that.

00;01;44;27 - 00;02;09;01
Chancellor Cox
Make me glad, too. I think across the state, judges might have different perspectives on this, so I'll just add mine in terms of where it is for. For me, at least in the 17th Judicial District, I have a set of people that are basically charged to take care of me while I'm in court, and other judges obviously that are there, but each and every day when I'm there.

00;02;09;01 - 00;02;25;11
Chancellor Cox
And so I have four counties, so it's not going to be the same all the time. I don't have a bailiff that goes with me that I can have a conversation with, and it's the same every single day. So that's important. And sometimes if you're in a single county, you're going to have a bailiff that you can have a relationship with every day.

00;02;25;11 - 00;02;50;05
Chancellor Cox
And that's also important. But the bottom line there is, in my view, it's relationship knowing and understanding what each other's expectations are. And handling that in a in a way that is not only fair and impartial, but that builds each other up. And I think that's incredibly important. My view on that is that all work is, is to be valued and should be valued.

00;02;50;08 - 00;03;22;22
Chancellor Cox
And I really appreciate what bailiffs and court security personnel do to keep me safe each and every day. It's an integral part of being able to deliver a safe, productive, product where adversaries can come in and have their disputes taken care of, yet that be done in an orderly and appropriate fashion. And so that relationship is important to making sure that that comes off without a hitch and smoothly each and every day. And for me, differently. And in each place.

00;03;22;24 - 00;03;24;24
Host
You're trusting a bailiff with your life.

00;03;24;25 - 00;03;25;17
Chancellor Cox
Oh no question.

00;03;25;18 - 00;03;32;22
Host
And there's more and more news, stories, coverage of moments when security doesn't go the way that it should.

00;03;32;25 - 00;04;05;11
Chancellor Cox
But that's absolutely true. You can think about that in terms of each courthouse has a security, group that is responsible for making sure that the room is safe before court get started. And it remains that way during the time that proceedings are ongoing. And that requires someone who is is not only adept at it, but perceptive of those things that might go on that could cause problems and able potentially to de-escalate things, to keep them from becoming larger problems.

00;04;05;12 - 00;04;36;12
Chancellor Cox
That's it. That's hugely important part, to making sure that we do things the way that we should. You don't have to look very far. Everybody's familiar with the judge in Nevada that got attacked, and that that video has been a viral video. But what's what you don't see in that circumstance at first blush. And that you do see when you're focused on this relationship, is that her bailiff was the very first person to try to come to her aid and try to keep that person from getting her.

00;04;36;15 - 00;04;53;23
Chancellor Cox
That's very important. Their their job. And that circumstance is not only to keep order, but to make sure that the judge is protected. And part of what we can do as judge is to make sure those type of things go off without a hitch, is to make sure that we have those kind of conversations with our bailiffs.

00;04;53;25 - 00;04;54;17
Host
The talk.

00;04;54;17 - 00;05;13;29
Chancellor Cox
The talk. Yeah. And by that I mean, okay, if something happens. Bailiff, what do you expect me to do? This is what I think I should do. Let's talk about it. Let's, you know, have a practice session about it, whatever we might need to do to make sure that we have a complete understanding with each other as to what's going to happen if somebody pulls a gun.

00;05;13;29 - 00;05;20;17
Chancellor Cox
I'm what am I supposed to do if somebody jumps the bench? What am I supposed to do? What's going to make your job easier?

00;05;20;23 - 00;05;30;16
Host
You had an interesting example about that, because if there is a security incident in the courtroom in order to help the bailiff do his or her job, well, sometimes you need to leave the courtroom.

00;05;30;17 - 00;05;55;00
Chancellor Cox
That's correct. But sometimes at the presence of the court is an escalation. And and it has, an effect of dividing a bailiffs attention. So in that aspect, it's a matter of, okay, if I do what the security plan tells me to do, I duck behind the bench and I leave the courtroom. Then that's one less thing that the bailiff has to worry about and keep an order in the rest of the room.

00;05;55;02 - 00;06;18;16
Chancellor Cox
Knowing the bailiffs tendencies and the bailiff knowing my tendencies are really important in that aspect. And I think that is built, relationships. And I want to be able to have a good, solid relationship with every bailiff that that is charged with taking care of me wherever I might be. It's an important aspect of making sure we do the job right.

00;06;18;18 - 00;06;25;19
Host
You have some best practices for this specific relationship. You've talked about communication of expectations. Also simple gratitude.

00;06;25;23 - 00;06;58;17
Chancellor Cox
Absolutely. Sometimes I think the perception of judges in that circumstance is that people think a judge is talking down to them, or people perceive that a judge is being condescending. And I think that's the worst thing you can project in that circumstance. Frankly, I hope I have conversations with my bailiffs that have to do with their kids and their hobbies and what they do and what they're about beyond the courtroom, so that it increases what we do together and we can work better together when we're talking about those things that are in the courtroom.

00;06;58;19 - 00;07;09;04
Host
Let's talk about clerks for a moment, because this is a relationship that you have said is evolving in some cases, or is changing a bit because of the elected nature of that office.

00;07;09;10 - 00;07;31;04
Chancellor Cox
I think that's true. Tennessee still has to what I would call classifications, which is probably too simple a word of clerks. They're elected circuit clerks. And then there are generally appointed clerks, a master across the state. So an elected clerk is elected by the people for a certain period, usually a four year term in that circumstance.

00;07;31;06 - 00;08;14;19
Chancellor Cox
And a clerk and master is appointed either by the Chancellor, who is seated specifically, or by a committee of judges serving as a chancellor for a six year term. So the accountability of those two offices are different, because of how they actually exist and what the expectations are differently in those places. With circuit clerks, I think it's an obligation and an opportunity for a judge to be able to deepen a relationship with a person who's actually elected by the voters and be able to have, an understanding of communicated expectations and a synergy with them without being offensive in that circumstance, which is built on having a good relationship.

00;08;14;22 - 00;08;19;09
Host
And the relationship produces a courtroom that is run really well, hopefully.

00;08;19;09 - 00;08;41;29
Chancellor Cox
Yes. That's, the everything with judges is a balance. So if your relationship is too strong, you might be the bailiff who is taxed in 500 times with the court that ultimately resigns because of that. So you can't let it go too far. But certainly going back to simple gratitude. Look, I know that you're taking care of me today.

00;08;42;02 - 00;09;02;05
Chancellor Cox
You put your life on the line. Whether we had something happen or we didn't have something happen. I'm interested in you as a person. I want to know that you're okay. I want to be your friend. I hope you want to be my friend. I know that sounds simple, but it's true. And in that aspect, as we know each other better, we'll be able to work together better.

00;09;02;07 - 00;09;16;01
Host
We've heard clerks say that some things that are really important to them, with the relationship with their judge, is to speak up, to be noticed, even to have attorneys in other parties speak up in the courtroom so that they can do their job well.

00;09;16;06 - 00;09;39;17
Chancellor Cox
I think clear communication always brings for better efficiencies, a greater product from that perspective. So, for example, if if your clerk is taking exhibits in a case and is charged with that and you're to the court and you mumble something that they need to write down to put on to the exhibit sticker, and then we get off count.

00;09;39;17 - 00;10;00;28
Chancellor Cox
We have a problem later. That's an issue. If they know of a situation that they need apprize you of, you need to be able not only to speak up, but to listen and to listen well, oftentimes the clerk wants to be seamless. They want to be able to do what needs to be done without drawing attention to themselves, especially in the courtroom.

00;10;01;00 - 00;10;20;22
Chancellor Cox
And the judge becomes used to that. So we really ought to be more attuned. If a clerk is asking me a question, asking me, look, I need to talk to you about something, that's probably a time that we need to make sure that we take care of understanding what's causing that clerk to have a concern. So all of those things should lead to to.

00;10;20;25 - 00;10;48;12
Chancellor Cox
But me speaking up in that circumstance is to be done in an appropriate way to communicate what expectations are or rulings or whatever. So if it's a court reporter instead of a clerk, obviously I'm going to need to speak up to make sure that's down on the record completely. If what I'm talking about has to do with the duties of the clerk and I don't, I'm not clear in my communication of that is going to cause a problem between myself and the clerk or the clerk and master.

00;10;48;14 - 00;11;07;02
Chancellor Cox
And that happens inside of the courtroom and outside of the courtroom. I was talking to judges this morning. One of the questions that I asked them is, look, can you will your clerk come to you with questions if they are not willing to come to you with questions because there's tension in your relationship, you're probably not in a good place with them.

00;11;07;05 - 00;11;27;10
Chancellor Cox
And it's something that you need to work on as a judge is fundamental for lawyers. We all talk about the fact you really need to be friends with the clerk and and you need to do that from the time you start the practice of law. It doesn't change just because you can become a judge. Frankly, it becomes more important in that aspect.

00;11;27;12 - 00;11;59;17
Chancellor Cox
The other thing that's important to us as jurors is that the clerks are responsible for reporting the things that we actually did. When cases are filed, what type of cases are filed, how they're disposed of, the way, you know, the classification of all of that, and generally all of that is done by by folks who are really conscientious about their their job, who do it diligently with, with a desire to make sure that it's done accurately, professionally and excellently. And that should be celebrated.

00;11;59;20 - 00;12;06;19
Host
Absolutely. And keeping track of the volume of cases, the time it takes, all that's really important because those are metrics that are evaluated by the state.

00;12;06;25 - 00;12;38;16
Chancellor Cox
That's true. We have a specific single metric in our weighted caseload, which is for a clerk. Since we're talking about clerks, the clerks responsibility when a case is filed is to report that case as it's filed and it's assigned a certain number of minutes for our caseload based on how it's filed. The clerk that's doing that reporting, it's that clerk holds that judge's life in their hands in a way that's not the same as if it's a gun, or if it's if it's an attack, but it relates to what that judge is actually doing.

00;12;38;16 - 00;12;54;12
Chancellor Cox
So it could be reflected that that judge's work is not nearly as complete as it would be if those things were reported correctly. So it's all of it's important, and we all need to be able to communicate about it together and reach the right result.

00;12;54;14 - 00;13;06;08
Host
And I just bet that these are, I guess you might define them as soft skills that that may or may not be addressed or talked about in law school, for instance, is there seems to be things you learn on the job.

00;13;06;11 - 00;13;19;24
Chancellor Cox
Absolutely not talked about in law school in that aspect. I agree with that. You might get an anecdote or two, but that's not what you learn in or how you learn to think. Then this is more about being a good person.

00;13;20;00 - 00;13;20;18
Host


00;13;20;21 - 00;13;32;00
Chancellor Cox
And treating others as you would like to be treated and treating everyone with integrity and respect and honor and doing that no matter where you're coming from.

00;13;32;02 - 00;13;51;11
Host
Chancellor, you you talked about being a judge. There's always a balance that you're trying to achieve. And, I want to talk about one more very important group of people that you deal with. Of course, the attorneys and this idea of, you know, do you want to be fair or perceived as fair and, you know, the legal community?

00;13;51;11 - 00;14;10;17
Host
I think sometimes we forget this. You all know each other. You know, the lawyers, some of them are in your courtroom frequently, and you don't want to. It's human nature, perhaps, to be slightly different around those who you already know or have a relationship with than those you don't.

00;14;10;19 - 00;14;40;00
Chancellor Cox
I, I agree with that. And so the answer to your first question is I want to be both both fair and proceed as fair. That is a difficult balance to reach, especially with people you may have had relationship with before you came on the bench. People who have an expectation that that relationship continue in ways that may not be appropriate for that to to continue as a judge, but yes, I want that.

00;14;40;02 - 00;15;04;07
Chancellor Cox
What's of tantamount importance is how people perceive it. But I, I have to be true to self as well. So I want to be a fair and impartial arbiter of the law, regardless of the attorneys or parties that are before me. That gets difficult sometimes when you have lawyers on one side and a pro se litigant on the other side, there's a whole lot of situations where that might come up.

00;15;04;07 - 00;15;31;17
Chancellor Cox
And so for me, one of the, one of the hallmarks and being able to make sure that that is done well is the ability to listen as a judge. If you don't possess that and patience for that, I think you're going to be frustrated early. So one of the ways that I think that you could pursue that is being able to listen to those things that are before them, before you, well and completely and let everybody have their day in court.

00;15;31;19 - 00;15;56;26
Chancellor Cox
Sometimes it makes you be there later. Sometimes it makes you listen to things that you already knew, but it's still true. And so I think that's important. But treating everybody the same is important. You know, there were there are situations where I've grown up with lawyers at practice before me, from long before we came to the law.

00;15;56;28 - 00;16;10;05
Chancellor Cox
I have to guard against the perception of that being something different. Oh, well, this person's getting home cooking because they know. And sometimes that's a very hard balance. But you have to reach it.

00;16;10;07 - 00;16;16;20
Host
It can be subtle because you know things about that person their family, their hobbies, things like that, that.

00;16;16;22 - 00;16;36;22
Chancellor Cox
And I'm thankful in situations where I have those people that are also mature enough to understand, that doesn't happen all the time. We have sort of a society that likes to win. And so it's a matter of, you know, look, there going to be times you're going to come in here and you're my friend and I'm going to have to rule the issue, and that's the way that it's going to have to be.

00;16;36;24 - 00;16;57;12
Chancellor Cox
It's not personal. It relates to the case that's before me. And I think the lawyers that, or at least in my court, know and understand that. And I hope that's an ideal that we can pursue. And we have to guard ourselves against biases that we have. And I think that by and large, the judges that I know do that they're very careful about that.

00;16;57;14 - 00;17;14;06
Host
Our conversation, Chancellor, has brought to mind a quote that I like. It's, by Maya Angelou, and I won't remember it exactly, but it goes something like this that over time you may forget what somebody says or what somebody does, but you'll never forget how they made you feel. All right. Any parting thoughts?

00;17;14;08 - 00;17;36;17
Chancellor Cox
Yes. One of the things we did today was talk about one of them. One of my favorite jurists, Jesse McClain. He was on the Court of Criminal Appeals from Memphis, and we showed a clip from his wife talking about his life and what I always knew about Jesse and what always attracted me to him was the level of kindness that he had.

00;17;36;20 - 00;18;02;03
Chancellor Cox
He was one of the most kind individuals that you could ever meet. Didn't mean that he was soft, didn't mean he didn't make the correct legal rulings. But he was kind, and he was kind to everyone. And that has always made an impression upon me as a jurist for the years that I've been doing it. But it's also made an impression upon me as a person.

00;18;02;05 - 00;18;14;04
Chancellor Cox
Every relationship matters. The judges relationship with each deputy clerk, with each bailiff, will, each attorney with each litigant.

00;18;14;06 - 00;18;54;03
Chancellor Cox
And how that's approached matters. Building those relationships with kindness, care, concern, integrity and honor, valuing everybody's place and everybody's contribution should lead to a team that can produce good results for people that have access to the system. And it's my hope that it produces better and happier people. Whatever their perspective, whether it be judges or clerks or bailiffs or litigants or lawyers, sometimes it has to go with a grain of salt that you're not always going to get your way.

00;18;54;05 - 00;19;04;17
Chancellor Cox
But if you're content that everybody is approaching it from the best practices perspective, hopefully it's something you can be proud of and that we can all live with.

00;19;04;20 - 00;19;21;00
Host
Thank you, Chancellor J.B. Cox, for joining us. Really appreciate your perspective over the years. This is really important information. I think for those in the legal profession, you know, the law is obviously tantamount, but these relationships and how you treat people in the courtroom has a lasting impression.

00;19;21;05 - 00;19;28;25
Chancellor Cox
I agree, and I think it relates to not only, professionalism, but collegiality and life in general.

00;19;28;27 - 00;19;35;21
Host
And an overall good impression of the judicial system. Because, as you said, it's you're not just an individual judge, you're representing everybody.

00;19;35;22 - 00;19;36;07
Chancellor Cox
That's correct.

00;19;36;14 - 00;19;38;00
Host
All right. Well, thank you so much for your time.

00;19;38;03 - 00;19;40;18
Chancellor Cox
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this has been fun.

00;19;40;25 - 00;19;49;03
Host
Agreed. And thank you for listening to Tennessee Court Talk. You can find more information about the Tennessee judicial system at tncourts.gov