Ep. 10 Women of the Tennessee Supreme Court - Fred D. Gray Panel

Episodes 9 and 10 feature two panel discussions we recently attended at Lipscomb University with the three former and the three current female justices of the Tennessee Supreme Court. The conversation was enlightening and lively and it stands for itself. The recording featured in this episode is from the evening panel featured during the 2020 Fred D. Gray Dinner and features the justices mentors, being the one and only woman, what the justices do in their downtime and more. Thank you to Lipscomb University and Professor Randy Spivey for allowing us to record it.

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;23;27
Voice Over
Tennessee. Court Talk is a podcast presented by the Tennessee Supreme Court Administrative Office of the courts. The aim of the podcast is to improve the administration of justice in state courts through education and understanding. The target audience varies and is announced in the beginning of each episode. Welcome to Tennessee Court.

00;00;24;00 - 00;01;30;01
Host
I'm your host, Barbara Peck. Today's podcast is different. From what we normally do. Recently, we. Attended an event at Lipscomb University with the three former and the three current female justices of the Tennessee Supreme Court. The conversation was enlightening and lively, and it stands for itself. Thank you to Lipscomb University and Professor Randy Spivey for organizing this amazing event and for allowing us to record it. The recording featured in this podcast is from the evening. Panel during the Freddie Gray Dinner. And features the justices discussing mentors. Being the one and only woman, what. The justices do in their downtime, and more. In this discussion, you will hear from former Justice Judge Martha Sissy Craig Daughtry, who is currently a senior judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. Former justice Penny white, who is now a professor at the University of Tennessee College of Law, former Justice Janice Holder, who practices in Memphis, and the court's three current female justices. Justice County Clerk Justice Sharon Lee and justice Holly Curry. This panel is moderated by Joycelyn Stevenson. The executive director of the Tennessee Bar Association. We hope you enjoy it. Thank you all for being here. And and welcome.

00;01;30;01 - 00;01;46;02
Joycelyn Stevenson
I have to say that I'm honored to be sitting here tonight as an understatement with this esteemed panel. And, I really appreciate this opportunity. I know people here want to hear from you. We talked earlier, and I told them I will ask you questions you do not have to answer if you don't want to.

00;01;46;03 - 00;02;04;17
Joycelyn Stevenson
If you have a better question, feel free to throw it out there. If you say it's a dumb question, that's fine too. And they all agreed to tell me that if, if it comes up. But if, there's a question that you think is a better question and I'm sure that you will let us know. We had the pleasure of sitting with, Jayla, one of the Freddie Scholars at our table, and she was very kind to talk about.

00;02;04;17 - 00;02;24;08
Joycelyn Stevenson
Always wanted to be a lawyer, but really wanted to be a judge. And so I thought, what a great place to start with you. With all of you wonderful, women of the court this this evening. So one of the outcomes of this program, I think Jayla is a testament to that, is hopefully that we can inspire women and others, to excel and want to be leaders in their communities.

00;02;24;10 - 00;02;50;27
Joycelyn Stevenson
There are likely some women and men out there who aren't familiar with some of the pioneers of the law and of women in the profession around the state. And so I'd like for you all to talk a little bit about who some of those folks are. Who should we know that some people might not know? And also, if any of those people were your mentors or inspired you, I think that would be important to know as well. And so, Justice Kirby, you in particular had a particular person in mind that you want to mention. So we'll start with you.

00;02;51;00 - 00;03;28;06
Justice Kirby
The person I wanted to talk about, in particular, Judge Julia Gibbons in Memphis. No discussion of women pioneers in Tennessee is complete without her in 1981. And remember, Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1981. To give you a little frame of reference in 1981. Then-Governor Lamar Alexander appointed her as the first female judge, appointed to a court of record in Tennessee.

00;03;28;08 - 00;04;04;24
Justice Kirby
She was only 30 years old at that time. She went on to run an election with her infant daughter on her hip as she was campaigning, and won election in Shelby County as trial judge. In 1983, President Reagan appointed her to the federal district court, making her the first female federal judge in the state of Tennessee. She was at that time the youngest person ever appointed to the federal bench.

00;04;04;26 - 00;04;39;26
Justice Kirby
Even now, she's the second youngest person ever appointed to the federal bench. But that's not all. The chief Justice of the US Supreme Court noticed how capable she was and began appointing her to positions of leadership in 2002, after 20 years on the trial bench. She was appointed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. Shortly after that, the Chief Justice appointed her as the chair of the Budget Committee of the entire federal judiciary.

00;04;39;28 - 00;05;12;09
Justice Kirby
Think about that for just a moment. It's a it's a budget of several million dollars. As the chair of the budget committee. She presented the federal budget for the federal judiciary to Congress through several administrations, several changes of parties over a period of 12 years. She is significant to me. She's significant to a number of men and women who she has mentored.

00;05;12;11 - 00;05;43;26
Justice Kirby
She's humble. She's brilliant. She has pitch perfect judicial temperament as, Judge Daughtry sits with her on the on the Sixth Circuit, Justice page was served as her law clerk. A number of people in this room can see she, I wanted to make sure that she was included because, she is a person of not only historic significance in Tennessee, but of national prominence. And I wanted to make sure you know about her. Thanks.

00;05;43;29 - 00;06;14;10
Hon. Penny White
I, I would love to say that if it weren't for Cissy Daughtry. None of us would be sitting here and, as the as the as the least. So least long's longest serving member of the court. Judge. Judge Daughtry was the judge when there were nine of us, nine women in the entire state. And, another one of those women, Marietta Shipley, is in, is in the audience.

00;06;14;10 - 00;06;35;15
Hon. Penny White
And I can remember going to judicial conference. And and if you could find Cissy, you knew you could get through four days at a state park because she was going to be there to to hold you up and and, I just want to say it publicly that every everything after the first judgeship that I had, I owed you.

00;06;35;15 - 00;06;37;06
Hon. Penny White
So thank you so very, very much.

00;06;37;12 - 00;06;59;29
Justice Clark
Thank you. And I want to join that. Because I came in as judge number six, appointed just before a regular election, and Cissy was the first person to call me and say Judicial Conference is going to be in just 2 or 3 weeks. And I would love it if you would be my roommate. I had no idea going in that.

00;06;59;29 - 00;07;20;15
Justice Clark
First of all, Susie, as an appellate judge probably didn't wasn't required to have a roommate. She was just welcoming me. But there wouldn't have been any other choices for roommates. So since her, only four other women besides the two of us. There. But she just she, she was somebody I had known, but not known.

00;07;20;15 - 00;07;45;27
Justice Clark
Well, until I actually became a trial judge. And so had to second what Penny said she has. Pulled people along and and pushed us along and dragged us along if we needed to be dragged. And, there are a lot of people, that she has mentored in ways, overt and, and behind the scenes and in many different ways.

00;07;45;29 - 00;07;48;07
Justice Kirby
Just so have a Judge Doctrine story.

00;07;48;10 - 00;07;53;02
Ret. Justice Holder
Okay. You're going to go next. I get I get to go next.

00;07;53;04 - 00;08;18;08
Ret. Justice Holder
Morning. I was in the wave in 1990 when some women got elected, and we added to the women, who were on the bench in Tennessee. And I really have to echo, what Connie said about Judge Daughtry, because she really she brought us all along, whether we wanted to be coddled or not. She brought us all along.

00;08;18;10 - 00;08;29;04
Ret. Justice Holder
And I wasn't her roommate. The penny was my roommate. So we got to be roommates together at the Judicial conference, but without Judge Daughtry. We wouldn't be here.

00;08;29;06 - 00;08;48;17
Justice Lee
So I thought I was the only one with a Judge Daughtry story. And it turned out they printed my remarks. But, in 1990, when, she was running for the Supreme Court at that time, the court, they I guess the Democrat nominees got together, got a van and went all over the state. So I lived and practiced in Monroe County.

00;08;48;19 - 00;09;07;05
Justice Lee
And in 1990 I was running for General Sessions judge. And, I was the only woman practicing in the county, so I never saw any other women lawyers or judges. And my mom was getting together this, greeting or welcome party for the Supreme Court when they came to town or the nominees. And she called and said, we really need you.

00;09;07;05 - 00;09;26;25
Justice Lee
The courthouse Supreme Court's coming. You're not going to stay long, but we need you there. And I said, mom, I really don't want to meet them. I, I never see them again. What's the point of meeting these five people that have no part in my life? So. But my mom's like, we're afraid nobody's going to show up. You've got to be there.

00;09;26;26 - 00;09;49;21
Justice Lee
So I go here, they get off the bus and shake hands, and I meet Judge Daughtry and think, well, that's the end of that. I'll never see any other Supreme Court justices again. So about so the election comes and goes and she wins, I lose. And, about two weeks later, I get this letter in the mail from Justice Martha Craig Daughtry.

00;09;49;21 - 00;10;13;24
Justice Lee
And I was really afraid to open it because kind of like the IRS, a Supreme Court justice doesn't write you unless you're in trouble. And I'm thinking, what have I done and what I had done I didn't think anybody knew about. So, you know, like what? What is this all about? And really wracked my brain. So I opened it and it was a letter from, Judge Daughtry saying, so nice to meet you at the Monroe County Courthouse.

00;10;13;24 - 00;10;34;16
Justice Lee
And I see you didn't win your election, but, you know, you should continue to try. And it was just a very uplifting letter. And I was just so surprised that she remembered me after all those counties I went to, that she would remember me and that she would check to see how this little General Sessions Court race went in Monroe County.

00;10;34;19 - 00;10;53;13
Justice Lee
So when I got appointed to the Supreme Court, she was the first call I made to see if she would speak at my investiture, because I thought things had really come full circle now. And I told that story at my investiture, and and she, of course, didn't remember it because she's written a lot of letters like that, encouraging people.

00;10;53;15 - 00;11;09;29
Justice Lee
So I knew I was going to surprise her with a story. With that, that tells you a whole lot about her, that she could make that big a difference in somebody's life. Who at that point, I was feeling like a pretty big loser losing the election. And then to get that kind of letter really, really bad. So thank you.

00;11;10;01 - 00;11;35;15
Ret. Justice Daughtery
So I have a sissy Daughtry story to okay. And it has to do with Julia Givens. The years that the Judicial conference was at and not Henry Horton, Fall Creek Falls. In order to get one of the cabins, there was a three judge rule. I mean, we tried to get a cabin, and never were able to do it.

00;11;35;18 - 00;12;03;28
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And so Julia gets appointed, and then Muriel Robinson gets elected. And I stormed up to the executive secretary's office, and I said, we got a cabin. There are three of us in this whole judicial conference, and we get a cabin. And we did a.

00;12;04;00 - 00;12;30;04
Joycelyn Stevenson
Well, all of that much deserved praise, for, particularly for you, judge Daughtry leads me to my next question, and we are very fortunate in the state of Tennessee to have a Supreme Court that's majority women and to give a round of applause for that. That's a really awesome. And as you saw from the the scrolling screen, before dinner ended, there are a lot of first in this room and on this stage.

00;12;30;04 - 00;12;55;08
Joycelyn Stevenson
And many of you were the first or the second or the only woman for a period of time in different positions that you've held. So I'd like for you to talk a little bit about that. What was it like to be the first and sometimes only, and what advice would you give to you, particularly women in the audience who still in 2020 might be the first and the only? And Judge Daughtry, I think starting with you is a natural place to start.

00;12;55;11 - 00;13;23;05
Ret. Justice Daughtery
Well, and this takes me back to 1975. When I first got the appointment to the Court of Criminal Appeals. And I think the main thing, well, there was a mentor on that court, judge Bill Russell, who, took me under his wing and, protected me to a great extent from from, what might otherwise have been unpleasant, conversations and so forth.

00;13;23;07 - 00;13;52;06
Ret. Justice Daughtery
But there were I mean, there was generally shock on the court when I came on, there were nine people on the court, nine, eight white men in me. And, as I said this afternoon to the students, there were a couple of those, judges who really thought they were important people. And all of a sudden, somebody was suggesting that a 33 year old girl could do the job that they thought was so important.

00;13;52;08 - 00;14;18;07
Ret. Justice Daughtery
So there was some, there was some, shock, and a little pushback. And it wasn't much fun. And it was a long time before I got on the court. It was another 15 years before I ended up on a court where there was another woman. And I think, really, we should hear from the people on the Supreme Court. I mean, when Janice went on the court, she was by herself for a while.

00;14;18;09 - 00;14;19;09
Ret. Justice Holder
A long time.

00;14;19;11 - 00;15;16;19
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And, and really appreciated the fact that there was a number two coming in behind her. I will say this, the first state Supreme Court in the country that had a majority of women on it was in Minnesota. And that's a that's a seven member court. And four of the judges, justices were women. And I don't know if you remember this, Margaret, but the women lawyers in Nashville were threatening to rent a bus and drive up to Saint Paul, go in the back into the courtroom, sit and watch a court that looked like real life because they also had, an African-American male judge on that court and then file out quietly and get on the bus and drive back to Nashville. I, I never quite raised enough interest to pay for the bus, but that's all for it.

00;15;16;21 - 00;15;18;13
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice holder, you want to talk a little bit about that?

00;15;18;21 - 00;15;47;27
Ret. Justice Holder
I was appointed to the court in 1996, and I was the only woman on the court until 2005, when Justice Clark was appointed and if it's really difficult to explain what being the only woman on the Supreme Court is like, only Justice Daughtry would, would not, would have known some of what you go through as being the only woman.

00;15;47;29 - 00;16;17;18
Ret. Justice Holder
And I'll say it nicely by saying that as the only woman on the Supreme Court, you were relatively irrelevant. And and sometimes you would speak and you weren't heard. It was a very interesting experience. No one really thought about how your life went to work, whether you had a way to get from point A to point B, or whether you needed some help with anything.

00;16;17;20 - 00;16;55;26
Ret. Justice Holder
So when Connie got on the court in 2005, I think she asked me something like, how when are you going to when are you going to Nashville? Or how are you getting from here to there? And I almost fell over because nobody had ever shown any interest in how I got from point A to point B or whether there was any coordination that could take place between two people to do the same thing. So it was it was a sea change. Just having Connie there just made my life completely different from that point on.

00;16;55;28 - 00;17;30;11
Justice Kirby
When I went on the Court of Appeals, I was 38 and, the next youngest, all the other judges were men, of course, and the next youngest was maybe ten years older than me. And worked in another part of the state. So it was not only a gender difference, but a generational difference. All the judges I worked for were, men of a different generation.

00;17;30;14 - 00;18;09;01
Justice Kirby
I was, most of the time a single mother with two school aged children. Their children were grown and their wives had, maybe part time jobs, but they took care of everything for them. So it was a completely different situation between me and them. And what I, if you want to know, advice, Joyce, on what I found for me was, that they were trying to they didn't know how to approach it.

00;18;09;04 - 00;18;40;25
Justice Kirby
They didn't know what my life was like. And, over time, I. I cut them some slack consistently in not being able to envision my life as a single mother trying to get my kids to school before I drive, an hour and a half to court. And over time, we became great friends. We developed mutual respect after them, really not knowing what to make of me.

00;18;40;25 - 00;18;58;25
Justice Kirby
I was the age of their daughters and sons. They, I took it in stride. They tried to take it in stride. And we ended up having a lot of mutual respect and, great friendship.

00;18;58;27 - 00;19;15;24
Justice Clark
I want to jump into this conversation, but I think the better Segway is to go back to Justice White, because she was young, different generation as well. And she served as the only woman for that period of time. So, Penny, what would you say about that?

00;19;15;25 - 00;19;38;24
Hon. Penny White
Thank you. I did serve as only a member of the Supreme Court who happened to be female for a shorter period than Justice Holder, but nonetheless served by myself. And but mostly, I'm second at everything, right? Thanks to sissy. Now, second, the second woman on the Court of Criminal appeals. And so when I was there, since he was on Supreme Court, so there were two of us.

00;19;38;24 - 00;20;02;09
Hon. Penny White
And and then when I went to the Supreme Court and she went to the Sixth Circuit, by that time, we had justice Lee and Justice Kirby and Justice eventually Judge Owego, on court criminal appeals. But but but a couple of points. I was 34 years old when I became an appellate judge, on the Court of Criminal Appeals.

00;20;02;11 - 00;20;24;23
Hon. Penny White
I lived as, like, I like to say, closer to Canada than to Memphis, in the nooks and crannies of Upper East Tennessee I held. I was the fir I was first, female circuit court judge in the first Judicial district. So that's Mountain City, very, very rural, very, very conservative mountain city, or one Lizabeth and Johnson City.

00;20;24;23 - 00;20;49;15
Hon. Penny White
So I was first at that. And, I'm a little disappointed that Randy didn't put what I asked him to put on the slide, because I am and only and, he just he just wouldn't put it up there. So as I told the students today, and at this point, it is what it is, I'm the only, appellate judge in the state of Tennessee to lose to nobody and not and not be returned to office.

00;20;49;15 - 00;21;26;12
Hon. Penny White
So, I do I do have that distinction. My experience, I think, so, so so, keep referring to her sissy. It seems odd to call her Judge Daughtry, but she's she's just my friend. And she she had warned me, I think were prepared me. But, you know, frankly, maybe it's because I was 22 or 4 years younger than Frank to who was the closest in age to me, but I ended up having, a wonderful relationship with Justice to Woda.

00;21;26;15 - 00;21;57;24
Hon. Penny White
At my first chief, chief Justice Anderson. Chief Justice Burch, who I dearly, dearly adored and loved, and justice Reed, who I'm still friends with to this day and and and this is some of the women in the audience won't appreciate this, but one of the things that I did was to create a necktie contest. And so when I would go into the into the deliberation room, I would always traveling all the way from tri cities down to Nashville, had the longest trip of anyone to get there.

00;21;57;24 - 00;22;21;13
Hon. Penny White
And I will tell you that the most interesting experience back in the day, when we had judicial plates and I had J5, was when the nice Tennessee State trooper pulled me over and said, and I quote, honey, are you in a hurry to get home and see the judge? And I said, no, honey, I am the judge.

00;22;21;15 - 00;22;45;20
Hon. Penny White
But. In any event, I would just go into the room and and I'll have to say, Alberts was the only member of the court who knew how to buy or wear a tie. So I would just tell Rhoda and Anderson and and Reed they needed, if they needed to take some lessons from Justice Burch about neckwear. And we became friends. So, so that was, that was just a very.

00;22;45;22 - 00;22;59;15
Ret. Justice Daughtery
What a part of my life. What the cops said to me is, are you married to a judge? And I said, no, but my husband is good.

00;22;59;17 - 00;23;02;19
Justice Clark
Okay, so, Joycelyn, so.

00;23;02;21 - 00;23;05;18
Joycelyn Stevenson
This is a great segue to the I'm sorry, I just.

00;23;05;21 - 00;23;29;26
Justice Clark
I still want the rest of us to jump back in because it it's different when you come in as the second member of the Supreme Court. I've never been on a court that had fewer than two women and so didn't ever feel those first dynamics, at least among my colleagues. There are still differences, and there were still conversations about neckties and other things.

00;23;29;28 - 00;23;52;26
Justice Clark
And maybe just Justice Elder broken them in. Well, but I thought that they tried really hard to welcome me and to, when there are only five members of a court. And in Tennessee, we only have, it creates a whole new group personality when a single person comes in and we have to work as a group and sometimes move as a group.

00;23;52;28 - 00;24;09;11
Justice Clark
And so everybody has to give and take a little bit. It's kind of like brothers and sisters. You don't get to choose them, but once you've got them, you're all part of the family. And I think it got easier probably, as there were more of us. And I don't know what Justice League Justice Kirby would say.

00;24;09;11 - 00;24;17;12
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I think. Diane would said it's like being married in a situation where you can't get a. Divorce. Right?

00;24;17;15 - 00;24;37;05
Justice Lee
Well, I've never served my entire time with Supreme Court has been with majority women. So that's very unique. And I suspect Tennessee has one of the longest records of having a majority of women on the court in any other state. When I was appointed the Court of Appeals, I was the only woman in the or the first woman and the only woman to serve on the eastern section.

00;24;37;07 - 00;24;56;15
Justice Lee
And, I it was very welcoming. One time we were hearing a case and Judge Franks was. It was a case about a tanning bed. A lady fell getting out of a tanning bed and sued. Judge Franks had never seen a tanning bed, I'm pretty certain. And he kept saying now she found what, in a bed and.

00;24;56;18 - 00;25;26;17
Justice Lee
But he just didn't get the notion of a tanning bed. So I just sort of interrupted and said, counsel, I know what you're talking about. I'll explain it. I'll explain tanning beds to Judge Franks. Go ahead with your argument. So he wrote me this little note that said, this is why we needed you on this court. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm not sure about that, but, I do have this case nailed. So, yeah, I do know about tanning beds.

00;25;26;19 - 00;25;50;28
Joycelyn Stevenson
Well, one of the questions that I was going to ask is if you feel or felt that there are differences in the experiences of men who are attorneys, judges, justices, than women. And if you had any war stories or personal stories related to this that could be funny or not funny, that you could shed light on for our audience. And I know we had some discussions in back, but I won't bring up anything in particular. I'll let you decide what you want to talk about.

00;25;51;00 - 00;26;28;25
Ret. Justice Daughtery
How many people in the room remember David Rutherford? Okay, a few hands. He he was one of the all time, lawyers here in Nashville. By all time. I mean, he was at his peak about 50 years ago. And he showed up in the Court of Criminal Appeals to argue a case. And I was having a conversation with him, and I asked him a question, and he looked at me. I mean, I had known David for years. He looked at me and he said, honey, I'm so glad you asked me that question.

00;26;28;27 - 00;26;59;02
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And then he answered the question and I said nothing, but he was on his way out when I said, Mr. Rutherford, would you come back to the podium for just a minute? I said, I know you didn't mean any disrespect at all, but you should know that you called one of the judges up here, honey, and, well, I'm not going to hold it against you if you did that to say Joe Duncan over here, he might not think it was excusable.

00;26;59;02 - 00;27;05;03
Ret. Justice Daughtery
It. And whereupon Mr. Rutherford, assured me that he had meant no disrespect.

00;27;05;03 - 00;27;07;26
Joycelyn Stevenson
Of course. Anyone else?

00;27;07;28 - 00;27;26;02
Hon. Penny White
Well, since the chief is here, Chief Justice Bivins and I are both from Kingsport and, the first time I appeared in General Sessions Court in Kingsport, the judge refused to allow me to speak until I produced my law. License. And said, I don't really carry it around.

00;27;26;05 - 00;27;29;07
Ret. Justice Daughtery
It.

00;27;29;09 - 00;27;46;12
Justice Lee
So let me share a story. I was speaking to a group of third graders one day, and and, tell them about what it's like to be a judge and, and their question. Then I get to ask questions and they, you know, it's like, do you know, Judge Judy, that's the first question. You always get all this stuff.

00;27;46;15 - 00;28;08;18
Justice Lee
So finally I said, okay, we got this one little boy in the back just kept, you know, trying to just really wanted to. And he looked really worried. Really want to ask a question. I finally said one more question. What's your question? He went, okay, can boys be judges? I said, well, and I wanted to say, you know, we tried that for a long time.

00;28;08;20 - 00;28;13;15
Justice Lee
And it just did not work. And so.

00;28;13;15 - 00;28;30;16
Justice Lee
Actually the, the funny part I, I had, I guess, spoken that morning, we had court that afternoon or the next day and I came in the robing room and I'm telling a story just before I give my response to the little boy Bill, coach said, wait a minute. You didn't kill all of his dreams, did you? Because he knew what I wanted to say.

00;28;30;18 - 00;28;56;06
Justice Lee
I said, no, I said, you know, boys can be judges, girls can be judges, everybody can be judges. So I kept, you know, his hope alive. But I had a great answer for him. But it's that we were to the point that these little boys are thinking the area of the judiciary is closed off to them, which is when I was his age. That's course what I would have. But I thought, girls are closed off.

00;28;56;09 - 00;28;57;29
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Holder, what about you?

00;28;58;02 - 00;29;31;03
Ret. Justice Holder
Oh, I have so many stories. But I'll just tell you one of my one of my less colorful ones. You know, when I was the only, on the court, we had argument in Memphis and one of the the real deans of the of the Memphis bar. Was addressing the court at the very beginning of his argument, and he started out by saying, gentlemen.

00;29;31;06 - 00;29;57;28
Ret. Justice Holder
And I couldn't decide whether I would say something or not, and I let it go. That is the type of thing that we got for a long time. When I was on the circuit bench, male judges and now attorneys would refer to me as His Honor and would say things like, his honor will tell you that the this and this and his honor will do this and this.

00;29;58;00 - 00;30;31;12
Ret. Justice Holder
And the jurors would just look at these guys like, you know, quizzically not quite understanding why they were doing that. But when you are the only or when you are one of the few, it's hard for people to make that transition from all males for so many years to a few women sprinkled throughout it. We had a secretary in, circuit court who couldn't make the transition and referred to all of us as males.

00;30;31;15 - 00;31;01;06
Ret. Justice Holder
So if somebody called for me, she would say, he's on the bench right now, but as soon as he gets off the bench, I'll let him know. You call them. And it's, it's, it's a, it's nothing that's done in a way that is meant to insult you. And I never took it as an insult, but it's just so ingrained and has been so ingrained for so many years that it's hard for people to make the transition.

00;31;01;08 - 00;31;04;11
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Clarke anything,

00;31;04;14 - 00;31;06;09
Justice Clark
Some stories have to stay in the back.

00;31;06;15 - 00;31;07;28
Joycelyn Stevenson
Yes.

00;31;08;01 - 00;31;35;08
Justice Clark
Some stories can come to the front. One that I think about, especially early in my career, is that when I became a trial judge and I was the first, female trial judge in my four county judicial district. I live, in Williamson County and also went to Hickman, Lewis and Perry. But in Williamson County there was already, a General Sessions judge who was female, Jane Franks, who was still active in the juvenile court today, even though she's retired as judge.

00;31;35;08 - 00;31;55;27
Justice Clark
And I should really shout out to her as a mentor, too, because she came along in a really early time. So what happened was people lawyers were aware that a new judge had been appointed. But a lot of times when I would be introduced to somebody or I would walk up to say hello, they would say, oh, are you Judge Franks?

00;31;55;29 - 00;32;16;14
Justice Clark
And she said she began to get more comments like that too. And I think really again, it's I don't think any disrespect was intended, but people were still just not that familiar with running across or into, a female judge.

00;32;16;16 - 00;32;19;16
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Kirby.

00;32;19;19 - 00;32;44;11
Justice Kirby
When I came on the court, I was I was young as well as a woman in, a lot of the lawyers just couldn't get their head around it. What they did not know was, they normally wouldn't say much to me. They would sometimes be a little startled and a little puzzled. Like the one of the law clerks go out on the bench.

00;32;44;13 - 00;33;18;27
Justice Kirby
But, what they did not know was that our law clerks on the appellate court would regularly sit in the audience. So when we left, the bench, the law clerks were still out there and they were listening to what the lawyer said. And some of it was very unflattering. Some of it was, very sexist. And they didn't realize that the law clerks were bringing those comments back, back to me. So be aware of that, lawyers, when you are making your arguments.

00;33;18;29 - 00;33;42;01
Ret. Justice Daughtery
So, yeah, I had a law clerk who came to me after lunch and reported that the law that the clerk of court in Knoxville had said after we'd finished a very intense a Fourth Amendment search and seizure, case. And yes, I had asked a lot of questions and and what he said to in front of the law clerks was in that just like a woman to ask all those damn questions.

00;33;42;03 - 00;34;07;06
Ret. Justice Daughtery
Got straight back to me and I decided that was over the line and went out and said what the report was and said to him, if I hear of anything like that, any comment like that again, it may cost you your job. So, yeah, it it happened all the time, actually. We only found out about it once in a while.

00;34;07;08 - 00;34;25;01
Joycelyn Stevenson
Well, my next question is, and this is for anyone, talk about the importance of organizations or associations like the Lawyers Association for women, T law, other state and bar associations in the advancement of women in the law, particularly in this state.

00;34;25;04 - 00;34;27;04
Joycelyn Stevenson
Anyone there very important.

00;34;27;07 - 00;34;28;29
Joycelyn Stevenson
Very important.

00;34;29;02 - 00;34;50;20
Ret. Justice Daughtery
Well, we, and, many of you, who are lawyers here, and I will remember the breakfast that we used to throw for the Supreme Court. And the idea was we'll throw a little breakfast in a fairly small room. So it looks like there a bunch of us there. The room will be full. And, it was from the end.

00;34;50;20 - 00;35;18;25
Ret. Justice Daughtery
It was done at the time of the admissions to the bar and the Supreme Court back then came they actually you invited to become they would come like they knew we were going to feed them, of course. And so, at some point we had an outside speaker come in, Joan Dempsey Klein, who had founded the National Association of Women Judges in, in 1979 out in California.

00;35;18;28 - 00;35;41;20
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And she came and spoke and, I said something to her about she said, are these is this all the judges in the state? And I said, no, but it's most of the ones in the middle of the state. I said, how many judges are there in California? And she said, we have 124 judges. And I said, how in the world did you manage to get 124 judges?

00;35;41;20 - 00;36;02;02
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I mean, Tennessee at the time, remember, we had the three in the cabin and a few more, but that was about it. And she said, well, the governor appointed him. And I said, why would he do that? And she said, the Women's Bar Association, was on him all the time, pressing him to appoint women and putting candidates up.

00;36;02;05 - 00;36;29;12
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And that was the point at which I said to my fellow breakfast providers, we need to formalize this and get organized. And and one of the things we can do is increase the number of women in the, in the, state. And so the next thing I knew, I was in charge of a program called so you want to be a judge? And, and it worked. I really do.

00;36;29;15 - 00;36;55;29
Justice Kirby
When I was practicing law. I was, the first female partner in my firm. What that meant was that as each situation came up, I, I was, on the leading edge of it and including when I had my first trial, they, lawyers had to figure out, okay, what's our policy going to be?

00;36;56;01 - 00;37;24;23
Justice Kirby
And so they looked to me, the pregnant woman, to come up with a policy. And I looked to, my sisters and the women's bar Association that was, a young, women's bar association in Shelby County. But that's where I went to. You didn't have the internet and all that at the time. And I wanted something where I could bring it to partners in the firm.

00;37;24;25 - 00;37;44;24
Justice Kirby
And say, this is what they're doing over here. This is what they're doing over here. So it was invaluable not only for moral support, but for very practical support for the ones who are the leading edge. You need help. And that's where I went to get it.

00;37;44;26 - 00;38;06;12
Joycelyn Stevenson
So your presence on this panel and the presence of so many, particularly women leaders in this room, shows that we've made a lot of progress in the profession with respect to women. Where are there still some gaps? Where there's where is there room for improvement? And so many leaders in the community in this room, what can they do to help continue to help with that progress?

00;38;06;14 - 00;38;09;27
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Clark, what do you think?

00;38;10;00 - 00;38;31;25
Justice Clark
Well, the gaps that we see and hear the most about are still in, the private practice of law. We see women, that for a number of different reasons, don't stay on the full partner track. There's still not as many women partners as there are coming out of law school, where virtually every law school class now is at 50%.

00;38;31;25 - 00;39;03;07
Justice Clark
Women, pay is a problem. There are still childcare and other, issues like that that are problems. The more that firms have to focus on ours and, and, fees and things like that. I think the more difficult it is, we also, may have 25% women in our, judiciary now across the board, but there probably should be more.

00;39;03;08 - 00;39;25;19
Justice Clark
There certainly should be more. Again, given the number of young women coming out. So I still think we look at what what barriers are there, to practice and how can we improve those? How can we encourage more people to run for judicial office? And overall, how can we encourage more people to vote and vote for the issues and for the persons?

00;39;25;19 - 00;39;44;06
Justice Clark
It is as important here the governor of Tennessee is as it is that some of us are willing to, vie for, a position on the judiciary because it is the governor. In between terms, if you're not just running at the end of a term, who's going to make a decision about who fills all those positions.

00;39;44;08 - 00;40;19;06
Justice Clark
And so I think there are a lot of things we have to look at, and how we can improve that. And we're here tonight talking about women and their progress. Don't want to underestimate, the, the significant if not more significant barriers and problems that African-Americans and persons of other ethnicities still face. That's that's not our topic, but, that's equally important in most organizations, professional organizations that I know are really focusing on all of those issues else.

00;40;19;10 - 00;40;32;14
Joycelyn Stevenson
Okay. I have a question for our former, justices and particularly, Justice Holder and Justice White. Talk about life after the Supreme Court and about what you're doing now.

00;40;32;17 - 00;40;33;08
Hon. Penny White
Go ahead Janice.

00;40;33;13 - 00;41;02;08
Ret. Justice Holder
Okay. As as Chief Justice Bivins said, all you have to do is see me smile on. You know, that I'm having a good time. Since I left the bench in 2014, I really didn't have a plan about what I wanted to do. But that's kind of normal for me anyway, so I just sort of laughed and decided that whatever happened was going to happen, and I'd kind of be open to whatever came down the pike.

00;41;02;10 - 00;41;36;05
Ret. Justice Holder
So gradually I started building a mediation practice, and then a little bit later, an arbitration practice. So I'm using sort of my skill set as a trial judge and, and the public judge, in a different way. And it works very well. And I'm enjoying it very much. And I travel a lot. And of course, those of you who know me know that I'm a martial artist and I've been a martial artist for over 30 years, so I'm still teaching and I'm still competing, and I'm still working on the martial arts.

00;41;36;07 - 00;41;59;07
Ret. Justice Holder
I ballroom dance, I tap dance, so if it sounds like fun and it puts a smile on my face when I think about it, that's what I do. So it's a it's an easy way of choosing what you do in life. And, I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had. They've been extremely valuable.

00;41;59;09 - 00;42;08;26
Ret. Justice Holder
They've been wonderful opportunities and wonderful experiences. But now I'm just doing something a little different. And it's it works.

00;42;08;28 - 00;42;09;29
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice White?

00;42;10;01 - 00;42;38;00
Hon. Penny White
Talk about not having a plan? I did not have a plan, nor did I have a clue for that matter. But, no, I have, finally, landed in the most incredible job in the in the, in my imagination, I'm a professor of law and have been now for, believe it or not, belongs to my ever have done anything 20 years at the University of Tennessee College of Law?

00;42;38;03 - 00;43;02;23
Hon. Penny White
I run an advocacy and dispute resolution center there. There are people in this room who, rent my arms around tonight because they are, graduates from the College of Law, and, I there's not a better day than seeing someone who's in the profession making a difference, using perhaps some of the skills and maybe a little bit of the the experiences that I shared with them.

00;43;02;26 - 00;43;27;19
Hon. Penny White
So, so I am very, very fortunate to have, to, to be where I am. Unlike Justice Holder, I don't tap dance or ballroom dance. I wish I did, I pretty much still work all the time. But, stay very involved with the judiciary. I'm a kind of a permanent member of the faculty of the National Judicial College.

00;43;27;21 - 00;43;56;08
Hon. Penny White
I love judges, and I believe that they can have a tremendous impact on the, the direction of our country. And so to be able still to hang out with judges like here tonight and also at the Judicial College where state court judges go to try to improve their skills of learning, is an incredible honor that, that I spend a lot of my non duty time at the judicial college or somewhere else teaching judges or or lawyers.

00;43;56;08 - 00;43;57;16
Hon. Penny White
So that's what I do.

00;43;57;21 - 00;44;12;01
Ret. Justice Daughtery
You know, she, she's the only member of the appellate courts, I think, in Tennessee who ever won a case in front of the United States Supreme Court. So she was a first class litigator,

00;44;12;04 - 00;44;16;09
Ret. Justice Daughtery
All those years ago. And,

00;44;16;11 - 00;44;42;17
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I remember after the after the disaster, of the of the retention election that she lost, and I remember the first time I was in a, presentation that you made. I'm, I'm not sure where it was, but my jaw dropped. I thought, oh, my God. She was a great litigator. She was a great judge. But this is what that woman is meant to do.

00;44;42;17 - 00;44;57;01
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I mean, if you get a chance to, especially to the lawyers that are here to ever, get in on one of her workshops or presentations, you should take it, because she's truly one of the most gifted teachers I've ever been exposed.

00;44;57;01 - 00;45;04;27
Justice Clark
She's still the official evidence teacher to all the judges of Tennessee, including the Tennessee Supreme Court.

00;45;04;29 - 00;45;06;01
Hon. Penny White
Thank you.

00;45;06;03 - 00;45;27;19
Joycelyn Stevenson
Well, to the other judges, judges on the panel, what do you do to find balance? We talked about ballroom dancing and other things, but what else? You know, turn your well-being. It's extremely important. And, well-being of our judges is important. What do you do when you're not on the bench? And you are just wanting to either have fun or relax or just get balance in your life?

00;45;27;19 - 00;45;30;13
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Lee, we'll start with you. Okay.

00;45;30;15 - 00;45;46;05
Justice Lee
Well, I think you have to be aware of the need for work life balance, which is something I don't think as a young lawyer back in the day, we ever thought about, are you about. So, what do I do? Well, I have three grandchildren, and if you've got time, I'll be glad to show you about a thousand pictures of them.

00;45;46;07 - 00;46;06;02
Justice Lee
I spend time with my grandchildren. I try to walk every day. That's where I do a lot of thinking. I read a lot. I read a lot of, historical fiction, and that's, I've always got 2 or 3 books going that I'm reading different, different kinds of books. So. And I in the summer, I garden.

00;46;06;02 - 00;46;32;20
Justice Lee
I love to be up working in the dirt, making things grow. So that's sort of some of the things I do. But I think family probably is what? In the early years, having young children trying to practice law was sort of wrecked. Your work life balance, made it very difficult. But when they get older than you, you sort of regain that, and, the parents do all the hard work.

00;46;32;20 - 00;46;35;19
Justice Kirby
The grandparent just has a whole lot of fun with the kids.

00;46;35;22 - 00;46;37;28
Joycelyn Stevenson
Thank you. Judge Daughtery what about you?

00;46;38;00 - 00;47;13;03
Ret. Justice Daughtery
Oh, well, I have a daughter who's an attorney. She's a, assistant United States attorney here in Nashville. She's never married, but we have been. We went to China twice to adopt, my granddaughters and, it it hasn't been all entirely smooth. And, you know, it does help to have two parents. And so my husband, who's been gone now for a couple of years, but when he was here, we were both co-parenting, with Carey so that she could, and she's, she's somebody to be terribly proud of.

00;47;13;03 - 00;47;33;05
Ret. Justice Daughtery
She handles all the child exploitation cases in the U.S. Attorney's office. It's a terrible assignment for my point of view. But she's she's completely dedicated, to it. So that's it. And then I work crossword puzzles, and I. I've read recipes.

00;47;33;08 - 00;47;36;01
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I know, you know, I don't make the rest of it.

00;47;36;01 - 00;47;37;07
Joycelyn Stevenson
I read them, just read them.

00;47;37;08 - 00;47;44;16
Ret. Justice Daughtery
I read them recipes on the internet. Cookbooks? I cook by instinct. But I read.

00;47;44;18 - 00;47;48;26
Host
That. Wonderful. Justice Clark, how about you?

00;47;48;28 - 00;48;28;16
Justice Clark
For me, it's to be able to go back to my family. And there are many people who think I must not have a family because I am not married. I don't have children, but they don't know my sister and sister in law who are here tonight, who between them had five boys. And during their childhoods, I went to whatever it is they did. Boy Scouts and piano recitals and every kind of sport that you can have and everything else. They're now in their 40s and 30s, but we have a whole new generation. There are ten, grandchildren. And for me, they're, they're, great nieces and nephews. I just call them that. Great. And they range in age from 21 to 2, with another on the way.

00;48;28;23 - 00;48;50;15
Justice Clark
But I can tell you that, if you entice them by having a swimming pool in your backyard as I do, they will love Connie. And it's amazing what a two year old or ten year old twins or teenagers who are thinking about going to college can do to enrich your life when they trust you and want to sit down and have a conversation?

00;48;50;17 - 00;49;09;13
Justice Clark
And also try to make time for friends. And I have to recognize Margaret Behm, who gives me time whenever I need it, because it's the only way to, at this point to get her back in the conversation. She is a woman who has helped make many judges as well. She supports women in whatever they want to do.

00;49;09;16 - 00;49;17;10
Justice Clark
We all owe her a lot as well. And that.

00;49;17;12 - 00;49;19;16
Ret. Justice Daughtery
And they all keep me grounded.

00;49;19;19 - 00;49;23;07
Ret. Justice Daughtery
We call her the Queen maker.

00;49;23;09 - 00;49;25;11
Joycelyn Stevenson
Justice Kirby,

00;49;25;11 - 00;49;53;16
Justice Kirby
I have my children are grown now. My daughter lives in Washington, DC. I love to go visit her and, my, wonderful husband and I love to go on hiking vacations. Went on a mother daughter trip with my daughter to California recently, went hiking, and, my husband is a fabulous cook. So, Judge Daughtry, I read recipes and give them to him.

00;49;53;18 - 00;50;13;21
Joycelyn Stevenson
Well, I think I've made it to 15 of my 35 questions that I emailed you all beforehand, but I do want to say thank you on behalf of all of us, particularly those of us who've been practicing here in Tennessee and have admired you and watched you for so many years, it's a thrill for me to be here, and I admire all of you and thank you so much for your service to our state.

00;50;13;21 - 00;50;17;29
Joycelyn Stevenson
So please give them a round of applause for a wonderful discussion.

00;50;18;02 - 00;50;25;05
Host
Thank you for listening to this special edition of Tennessee Court Talk.