Appointed Counsel Vol. 5: Juvenile Court Claims

Almost half of all claims that come into the AOC are related to Juvenile Court. In this episode, host Joe Byrd welcomes Stacy Lynch, Director of the Court Improvement Program, who has a lifetime of experience with Juvenile Courts. Here, Stacy and Joe give insight into how attorneys can navigate the system effectively, including discussion of Rule 13, Rule 40, and necessary information regarding guardian ad litems, CASA volunteers, Safe Baby Court, court findings of potential dependency and neglect, and more. This podcast is intended for attorneys.

Produced by David Stripling, Administrative Office of the Courts

Transcript

00;00;02;12 - 00;00;45;12
Host
Welcome to Appointed Counsel podcast presented by Tennessee Court Talk. For those involved in indigent representation, I'm Joe Byrd, lead attorney for the indigent services team of the Tennessee Administrative Office of the court. Episode five Juvenile Court claims. Today, on the appointed counsel, I want to talk about juvenile court claims, and it's important for everyone to understand that almost half of all the claims that come into the EOC are related to juvenile court claims that can be attorneys who are appointed to represent the parents and a dependency neglect case, a termination of parental rights case, or maybe representing the minor child in a delinquency manner.

00;00;45;14 - 00;00;54;01
Host
And it can be guardian ad items. And today we have a special guest here at the AOC. Stacy Lynch is with us for this podcast. Stacy, we welcome you here.

00;00;54;01 - 00;00;54;25
Stacy Lynch
Well thank you.

00;00;54;28 - 00;00;58;26
Host
Tell us a little bit about your background and then tell us your role here at the AOC.

00;00;58;27 - 00;01;24;18
Stacy Lynch
Sure. Well, I am I come from the legal background. I was an attorney out in Coffey County, which is small county about an hour south in between Nashville and Chattanooga. And I, worked for a firm in Tullahoma, Tennessee. I practiced all kind of law, just as you do in a small town. I used to tell people I do everything except for worker's comp and Social security law.

00;01;24;19 - 00;01;48;09
Stacy Lynch
So anything that walked through the door. But really, my heart was working with juveniles. I liked going into juvenile court and taking the juvenile cases. I represented both parents and acted as a gal. So after doing that for quite some time, I worked with Judge Tim Brock before he passed away and he asked me to take on the magistrate position with the safe baby courts and family treatment courts in Coffey County.

00;01;48;15 - 00;02;11;12
Stacy Lynch
So we started that program and did that for quite some time. And then after he passed away, I started working with, in Rutherford County as the magistrate and started up the Family Preservation Initiative, which was preventing any sort of children from having any contact with the course or with the Department of Children's Services. And with that role, I really started working really closely with the AOC.

00;02;11;12 - 00;02;14;03
Host
And then your role here at the AOC? Yeah. Tell us about that.

00;02;14;05 - 00;02;36;01
Stacy Lynch
So I, started working in March of 22 with the court improvement program, and that's where I am now. I'm the director of the court improvement program and the responsibility of the court improvement program. We're actually a federal program started in 1994. The funding here in Tennessee and, our responsibility is to work with all of the juvenile courts throughout the state of Tennessee.

00;02;36;03 - 00;02;48;00
Stacy Lynch
And we work with both the judges as well as the department children's services and all of the child welfare stakeholders in the state of Tennessee to improve the permanency, safety and well-being of the children.

00;02;48;03 - 00;03;10;07
Host
One of the things I'm surprised you didn't say is, is you have to endure putting up with me, coming to your office every time we're working in the office together, because I'm a regular fixture. I think coming by to see you about every time we're in the office together, we always find something to talk about. Because, as I said at the opening, so many of our claims under rule 13 are related to child welfare.

00;03;10;07 - 00;03;40;24
Host
And, you know, when I think back about child welfare, I used to take some cases when I was in private practice. I served as a gal and, I represented parents and termination rights cases, dependency neglect cases. And I remember those days and I did some delinquency representing the children. I actually, you know, now that I remember it, I was a part of a program in the Bradley County system where, we sat as special judges in the schools for and for the special courts.

00;03;40;26 - 00;03;58;21
Host
Usually truancy matters is the kind of thing we handled. But, you know, I never could quite get my head wrapped around the fact that juvenile court really has more of a therapeutic end to it. Even when it comes to delinquency. It's not punitive. It's supposed to be therapeutic. What do you think about that? Do you have some thoughts on that that you'd want to share?

00;03;58;22 - 00;04;22;19
Stacy Lynch
Yeah. And that is the exact reason. You're exactly right. So the whole point of juvenile court is to be restorative or to provide rehabilitation. And that is I'm 100% behind that. And that is also what the safe baby court or those special day courts are designed for as well, so that we don't continue these issues generation after generation after generation.

00;04;22;21 - 00;04;40;19
Stacy Lynch
And I believe that children are our future. And there's a song about it. And if we don't, if we don't have the rehabilitation, if we don't, if it's not restorative the way that it is designed to be in juvenile court, then we're going to have a society that is broken down. And that is the whole point of juvenile court.

00;04;40;25 - 00;04;59;11
Stacy Lynch
It is not like criminal court where it's supposed to be punitive. And so as you're speaking of in the delinquency, as a matter of fact, it's set out in our statute, the statutes twofold, where you have to find that a delinquent act was committed, but that also that the youth is in need of treatment or rehabilitation as well.

00;04;59;11 - 00;05;01;09
Stacy Lynch
So it's twofold, a two pronged system.

00;05;01;09 - 00;05;11;07
Host
And even in the dependency neglect and even in the, I would say the necessarily the termination of parental rights cases. But usually there's always the goal and the focus is to reunify the family.

00;05;11;13 - 00;05;38;19
Stacy Lynch
It is certainly in the dependency and neglect that's a federal mandate. Is that, one that you have to have reasonable efforts to first remove the child and two, to, reunify. That's always the goal, is that permanency and preservation of the family, but moreover, is that you have the judges. If you look at any of the factors to consider in any of those issues that are considered in juvenile court.

00;05;38;20 - 00;05;44;02
Stacy Lynch
Number one is always the best interest of the child. It's always looking at the best interests of the child.

00;05;44;05 - 00;06;00;03
Host
Well, you knew I was going to head this direction, but you cannot talk about the work in juvenile court without talking about rule 13, right? I mean, it's not like you have a public defender's office that will take up so many of the cases, and then you only have to a point when there's a conflict on the criminal side.

00;06;00;05 - 00;06;19;28
Host
But everything outside of those parents who might can afford an attorney is basically paid out of rule 13. It's all the parents. Generally, if there is a finding of indigence and those guardian ad litem, they're paid through rule 13, and it's really a must for the attorneys to kind of get a good idea of what rule 13 says.

00;06;20;03 - 00;06;29;28
Stacy Lynch
Right. And that goes hand in hand with rule 40 as well, which is the rule that outlines the Guardian items as well. And I think that that's really important to go hand-in-hand with rule 13.

00;06;29;29 - 00;06;49;00
Host
Well, since you brought it up, it's not a rule 13 question, but back in my day, when I was appointed as guardian ad litem, I would often be appointed and told I was supposed to write a report back for the court. And I was the eyes and the ears of the court. But that's not the way guardian ad litem are seen today under the statute.

00;06;49;01 - 00;07;14;29
Stacy Lynch
It is not. That's funny that you said that, because when I first started, I remember someone handing me a template. You know what? I ordered a follow and said, here's your guardian ad litem report and turn it in. But that is not the role of the guardian ad litem. The guardian ad litem is role and responsibility as it is to investigate a case, but it is to act in the best interest of the child, and to report that to the court, and to to advocate for the child in court.

00;07;15;06 - 00;07;34;27
Stacy Lynch
But it is not to provide a report. You know, there are many courts that have Casa, and the castle workers do provide reports in that nature, but a guardian ad litem is not there to testify or to provide that that nature. They can ask questions and they are expected to do so just as any other attorney they would ask questions of a witness.

00;07;34;27 - 00;07;39;29
Host
Some of our criminal defense attorneys who who listen into the podcast may not know what Casa is.

00;07;39;29 - 00;07;42;10
Stacy Lynch
Yes, court appointed special advocate.

00;07;42;10 - 00;07;44;03
Host
And they don't have to be attorneys if I understand.

00;07;44;03 - 00;08;02;03
Stacy Lynch
Right. Actually, they are not. I mean, I shouldn't say that there are some retired attorneys that become Casa workers. There are some practicing attorneys who want to become Casa workers. But no, they are not. All of our guardian ladies in Tennessee are and must be attorneys. But Casa is not. Those are volunteers.

00;08;02;03 - 00;08;25;14
Host
So we're talking really about the child welfare side, which from my standpoint, it's dependency neglect, termination of parental rights. You mentioned safe baby court, which I want to hear you say a little bit more about in just a minute. But one of the things that just strikes me since I've been here in almost a year now, in my position here at the EOC, is the length of time that these dependency neglect.

00;08;25;14 - 00;08;35;28
Host
Our phrase ends. We call them the phase one and phase two. We break those out into phase one. Phase two, you want to just kind of give a quick description of what we mean by phase one. Phase two.

00;08;35;29 - 00;09;00;09
Stacy Lynch
Sure. So phase one is at the beginning of the case really everything through disposition of the case. And that includes your initial hearing, your preliminary hearing, your adjudication where you're finding fact in the, whether or not those grounds for either removal or to find whether or not that dependency neglect does exist, it's your fact finding. And then your disposition hearing.

00;09;00;09 - 00;09;23;21
Stacy Lynch
So if you have found that dependency neglect does exist, what should you do for that family, for the child, what is required of them? So that's really the meat of your case as far as the fact finding procedural pieces of it. Now that also can include include a number of things. In theory, the timing of it. And federal guidelines say that you should have your preliminary hearing within.

00;09;23;21 - 00;09;48;21
Stacy Lynch
If the child has been removed, there's 72 hours. I mean, there's there are some pretty strict guidelines. If the child has been removed from the custody of their parents and when, then the adjudication within 30 days, and then the disposition within 15 days of that. So there are some very strict guidelines, but in practice you can waive those timelines and it can extend on and sometimes those do extend on and sometimes they're very quick.

00;09;48;21 - 00;09;56;27
Stacy Lynch
They get waived. The whole hearings do. And you just do have agreement to move on to the dispositional phase where they begin to get treatment or whatever it is that they need.

00;09;56;27 - 00;10;19;22
Host
So for instance, there's severe there's allegations of severe child abuse that's going to make that phase one track on longer. Now just for those I this is important. The practitioners who do this work all the time, they'll know this. But adjudication and disposition adjudication you said is the fact finding where there's a finding that there's dependency neglect, that disposition could happen at the same hearing.

00;10;19;22 - 00;10;20;18
Host
Right?

00;10;20;21 - 00;10;31;16
Stacy Lynch
They can happen. Yes. It could happen on the same day. They are two hearings officially. But yes, in practicality, they can happen at the exact same time in the same day. Yes, in theory.

00;10;31;19 - 00;10;33;07
Host
A disposition we mean.

00;10;33;09 - 00;10;49;28
Stacy Lynch
Disposition is when you say what is the ending of the case? Like what services are going to be in place, what are the requirements of the child, what are the requirements of the department? What are the requirements of the parents? What is required to move this to close this case and move it on.

00;10;50;01 - 00;11;12;12
Host
As you well know. But I'm going to go ahead and say, because this is this is the world I live in the 180 days. Yes. To file a phase one predisposition case, 180 day submission period starts on the file stamp date. That's on that final dispositional order in a phase one. So if it's on the 181st day, it's untimely.

00;11;12;12 - 00;11;39;22
Host
And what the rule says is it's deemed waived. That's right. There's nothing else you can do. You've waive that claim. So it's important that the attorney pays attention to that dispositional date. Now phase two is different though. Let me start this way. Saying that phase two is the only claim here. Let me repeat the only claim that allows us to look at the dispositional date starting at the last activity, which, by the way, different than the days you were practicing.

00;11;39;28 - 00;12;02;09
Host
We have interpreted that to be if you have a complex and extended motion for the case, we'll count that as the last activity. So and you also get paid for the time to put that complex and extended motion together. So you get the you get the increase cap the double carrot. So but let's talk about those phase two, because those are the ones that I see a lot of those coming back as complex and extended.

00;12;02;09 - 00;12;05;14
Host
And there's really there's a reason why it's last activity.

00;12;05;14 - 00;12;28;22
Stacy Lynch
Right. Yes. So what you just said is a lot of those come back is complex. And the reason behind that is what I had said about disposition is when you hear what the family, what the child, what the department needs to do once that funding has been made. So these cases can go on for years. And I mean that before they close.

00;12;28;22 - 00;12;58;14
Stacy Lynch
Because if you think about a child who is in the custody of the department and the goal being to reunify the child, if everything goes perfectly to plan, which never happens. But if it does and everyone hits their timelines, you know, it could be 45 days when you get to the end of the disposition. Well, if you have some severe issues that need to be taken into consideration and people need treatment for that, a child is not ready to reunify with their family after 45 days.

00;12;58;14 - 00;13;24;02
Stacy Lynch
And so if you're looking at treatment, whether it's for the parents who need to go to a six month treatment program or they're going through certain steps, then you're talking about phase two, which is post disposition, that's going to go on for another 4 or 5, six months to a year save baby court, for instance. Those cases go on for, you know, a year or a year and a half before the child is ready.

00;13;24;09 - 00;13;41;23
Stacy Lynch
Even if the child goes back into the home, there might be a trial home visit before that case closes. So your attorney's certainly your guardian ad litem is continuing to work on this case before it closes, closing of the case being the last activity before everybody is relieved of their duties.

00;13;41;23 - 00;13;43;23
Host
And I've a child could age out.

00;13;43;26 - 00;13;48;10
Stacy Lynch
A child could also. You're exactly right. And that happens as well. A child ages out.

00;13;48;13 - 00;14;01;12
Host
I remember coming to your office and saying, what in the world is a 17.75 meeting? Yeah, because I was seeing that entry. And we never called it that back in the day when I was. And I'm not sure all jurisdictions do, but you can go ahead and tell everybody what.

00;14;01;13 - 00;14;22;24
Stacy Lynch
Yeah. So that the and there's and that is required again by federal statute or by federal law to, have a child who is 17 years old, 17.5 to go through that independent living or extension of foster care services because they're eligible for that once they come into custody. There's a lot of things that these children are eligible for.

00;14;22;26 - 00;14;25;24
Stacy Lynch
And now it's extended out to age 21 that they can get this.

00;14;25;24 - 00;14;30;08
Host
But for the record, there's nothing in statute called a 17.75 hearing.

00;14;30;12 - 00;14;35;18
Stacy Lynch
I that's right. But that's what they're talking about I guess it's a permanency hearing is what it is.

00;14;35;20 - 00;14;47;14
Host
Right. So you know obviously the guardian ad litem we've already talked about the role, but they're following right along. Whether it's phase one, phase two. Tell us a little bit about the safe baby court. That's sort of something near and dear to your heart.

00;14;47;17 - 00;15;13;12
Stacy Lynch
It is, it is and I, I wish that all of our, all of our courts would have one right now. I believe there's 13 in the state of Tennessee with plans for eight additional ones this year. It is an intensive program. In those 13 courts, in those 13 counties that we have where there's intensive wraparound services, and it's a team approach, a multi-disciplinary team approach that, we have a safe baby core coordinator.

00;15;13;12 - 00;15;34;05
Stacy Lynch
They work with DCFs, they work with all of the communities. Groups get together once a quarter, and they talk about what services are available for this family. And the goal, again, I believe Rutherford County has all of their children are do not go into DCS custody. So they are placed with relatives, but the other ones go into the DCS.

00;15;34;05 - 00;15;56;11
Stacy Lynch
Cassie. But the goal is to reunify the family there ages 0 to 3 or the children, so it's 0 to 3 year olds and their retention rate. I believe the recidivism rate is extremely low where these children who normally children who go into foster care, they go in, they come back out, they go in again. And that's what they're trying to cut down on.

00;15;56;11 - 00;16;01;26
Stacy Lynch
And in the psych baby, court cases, it's very low that that happens where they go back into custody.

00;16;01;26 - 00;16;17;27
Host
I'm from Sumner County and you've heard me bragging. Yes, I think they have. They're they're set up through the mental health courts. And that's really quite an impressive program that they have in Sumner County. Judge Howard there in, his team, they really do an excellent job there, don't they?

00;16;17;29 - 00;16;37;17
Stacy Lynch
Yes they do. They have a different type of specialty court they are that they've set up their own program, but there are several. We had the family treatment court, like I said, we had that in Coffey County. I think there's a couple of places that they're trying to set up there that's through. I believe the Department of Mental Health has those now, but those are you know, there's been several throughout the time.

00;16;37;17 - 00;16;56;00
Stacy Lynch
I know Coffey County also had a veterans court for a while. It's all drug courts and criminal court. It's all that same concept where you you don't follow that traditional pattern, whether it's criminal court where you just throw people in jail and leave them and just say, well, get better on your own, but you address whatever that issue is.

00;16;56;00 - 00;17;02;10
Stacy Lynch
It's a mental health court. You address the mental health issues, or if it's veterans court, you find out what the root of the issue is and address it.

00;17;02;15 - 00;17;22;02
Host
Well, we've already talked about, delinquency and unruly. I do want to just mention all we're chatting that like in an unruly case, that would be typically something that is not a necessarily a criminal act, can only be committed by a minor, I think is one way we hear a lot of folks that term it, but basically like truancy.

00;17;22;02 - 00;17;32;09
Host
But now a guardian ad litem while a guardian ad litem was not be generally appointed in a delinquency case or unruly case, there could be times when a guardian ad litem is needed.

00;17;32;11 - 00;17;57;00
Stacy Lynch
So a guardian ad litem is, my understanding is they're not appointed in a delinquent case. However, many times they are appointed, possibly in an unruly case, because many times are unruly. Cases may turn into a dependency and neglect case because, for example, truancy. If you think about these truancy cases, especially if you think about the age of the child, if it's a teenager, teenagers aren't going to school.

00;17;57;00 - 00;18;16;07
Stacy Lynch
That may be more of an issue with the child. If it's an elementary school age child and they're not going to school, this might be more of an issue with the family, with the parents, that might be more of an educational neglect, dependency, neglect case. And so there's that possibility that the child may be removed from the home.

00;18;16;07 - 00;18;39;16
Stacy Lynch
And whenever there's a dependency neglect matter, a guardian ad litem is always appointed. It's mean to appointed by statute. So in that case, a judge may appoint a guardian ad litem to investigate. Specifically. Truancy always comes to mind for that because there's three ways to look at it. Truancy matter. Is it a criminal parent issue? Is it a dependency, a neglect issue, or is it a kid issue?

00;18;39;22 - 00;19;02;08
Stacy Lynch
You know, is it a delinquency issue with that child? So, a lot of times that the judge may appoint a gal to investigate something. There are, like you said, some specific what would be considered a criminal act. They're called delinquent acts in juvenile court. But what would be considered a crime that are specific only to minors, like sexting or truancy, things of that nature.

00;19;02;11 - 00;19;23;14
Host
So we're going to put on the tncourts.gov a sample of an order. If someone is appointed as a guardian ad litem in one of these truancy cases, or something similar, where the judge finds that there are allegation, potential allegations of dependency neglect. So people can see that because we really don't want them to use the regular normal template because we need that language.

00;19;23;14 - 00;19;40;16
Host
This was basically a truancy case, but I have concerns. And so I'm appointing a guardian ad litem and it needs to have that language in it. So we're going to have that. The last thing before we go these complex and extended orders, it catches, some of our attorneys that do work in juvenile court because they're so passionate about what they do.

00;19;40;19 - 00;20;01;13
Host
But rule 13 is kind of a really a it's a razor sharp sword when it comes to the timelines of getting that order signed before the approval of the court. Now, I remember in the days why that rule was established back in the days of paper. But we still need it today because we can't have claims coming back and back.

00;20;01;13 - 00;20;23;16
Host
So we say that that order approving and certifying the case is complex and it's extended has to be signed contemporaneously with the approval of the court, which means in a cap now most of the judges are online and they they approve on line. So it has to be signed on or before is how we interpret that day. Otherwise the rule is very particular.

00;20;23;18 - 00;20;38;00
Host
It says that you can't come back with a nunc pro tunc order. That's the deadline and you have to follow the deadline. And some attorneys get upset with this. But it goes back to what I said. If you're going to practice in juvenile court, you really have to know rule 13, don't you?

00;20;38;01 - 00;21;00;15
Stacy Lynch
Right? Yes. And I will say my experience has been if attorneys have questions about is this how I need to do a year of this and how I need to do it? And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting in front of me. But if they reach out to you or someone in your department and ask those questions, that you all will help walk them through that, because it's better to do that than to just submit it and it be wrong and come back.

00;21;00;15 - 00;21;27;08
Stacy Lynch
And then you miss your timeline. And if you wait until the last, if you wait till day 179 to submit it, that's when you're going to find yourself frustrated. Because then you're not going to get paid for the work that you have done, and nobody wants that. You know there are. And reach out to individuals who are very well experienced and have done a lot of claims and get their tips, because that's the best way to do it.

00;21;27;08 - 00;21;47;01
Stacy Lynch
At least that was my experience. I found some things that worked really well for me. I learned a lot from some of my mistakes that I made and the ones that came back. I learned from other people's mistakes that came back. But whenever I reached out and asked questions, I was always found, you know, very helpful. The claims that came back, they were always the ones I waited till the last minute.

00;21;47;09 - 00;21;49;13
Host
That wisdom. Really. Stacy.

00;21;49;16 - 00;21;50;17
Stacy Lynch
Learn from your mistakes.

00;21;50;17 - 00;22;11;24
Host
Yeah. That's right. I appreciate you being here with us on appointed counsel today. This has been very helpful. I hope it's been helpful to our practitioners in this area. You all have court improvement, have a certain pages on our website at tncourts.gov that they could check out. I already mentioned some of the orders and sample things that we have on our page on the teen court together.

00;22;12;00 - 00;22;17;22
Host
Again, thank you for being here and thank you for listening to Appointed Counsel and.