Appointed Counsel Vol. 14: Proper Billing for Attorney Activities

In this episode of Appointed Counsel, Joe Byrd invites special guest Debra Sandlin of the AOC's Legal Services Division. The bulk of this conversation revolves around Deborah's role in the billing cycle of appointed counsel and advice she gives concerning billable hours to law schools throughout Tennessee. 

Transcript

00;00;03;21 - 00;00;37;15
Host
Welcome to Appointed Counsel, a podcast presented by Tennessee Court Talk. For those involved in indigent representation, I'm Joe Byrd, Lead Attorney for the Indigent Services Team of the Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts. Episode 14 Proper billing for Attorney Activities. Well, in this podcast today, I have a very special guest. It might be someone that you don't think of because her work here at the AOC doesn't necessarily directly impact the indigent services team, but she's a valuable member of the Legal Services and Judicial Development Division.

00;00;37;17 - 00;00;54;07
Host
She's a friend of mine, and she has an interesting background in terms of what attorneys have to do regarding, billable hours. Deborah Sandlin is here who serves as our paralegal. Tell us. Introduce yourself to us. Deborah, and tell us a little bit about yourself.

00;00;54;10 - 00;01;08;26
Deborah Sandlin
Well, I am. Deborah Sandlin, good afternoon. First of all, I am Deborah Sandlin. I've been here at the AOC since 2020. So I started when no one was here.

00;01;09;02 - 00;01;10;07
Host
During Covid, during.

00;01;10;07 - 00;01;20;20
Deborah Sandlin
Covid. And I am a paralegal. Compliance analyst. I am a plethora of other things. Instructor. All of it.

00;01;20;23 - 00;01;27;01
Host
So some of the functions that you would do generally here in the Legal Services and Judicial Development Division would be what I.

00;01;27;01 - 00;01;45;03
Deborah Sandlin
Deal with publications. I deal with the Blue Book online access. I deal with designations. I deal with CLE’s boards and commissions. And I think there's more. But that should suffice, right?

00;01;45;06 - 00;01;51;21
Host
Yeah. So you don't just have a, an associate's degree in paralegal studies. You have advanced degrees.

00;01;51;28 - 00;02;00;12
Deborah Sandlin
I do have advanced degrees. My master's is in, conflict management, and my doctorate is in education.

00;02;00;20 - 00;02;07;03
Host
Now, I noticed that they moved you very close to my office. When you say conflict management. Now I understand why a lot.

00;02;07;03 - 00;02;12;01
Deborah Sandlin
Best so I can weed out all the conflict information.

00;02;12;03 - 00;02;18;14
Host
So you do have an EDD? and, I don't say Doctor Sandlin as much as I should.

00;02;18;16 - 00;02;22;10
Deborah Sandlin
Oh. You're fine. Deborah, is fine. I use it when I need to.

00;02;22;12 - 00;02;28;27
Host
Now, you also do something, in the evenings on your own time. Another business that you do.

00;02;29;00 - 00;02;33;09
Deborah Sandlin
That is where I am a compliance analyst, and I deal with billing.

00;02;33;12 - 00;02;36;21
Host
Talk to me about that. What do you mean, you do billing? What does that mean?

00;02;36;23 - 00;03;08;11
Deborah Sandlin
So, I have several clients, and those clients create billing guidelines and law firms, they, those that particular client let let's use something that everybody might know. So let's say Walmart is my client. It's not a let's just say it is. So Walmart employs several law firms around the country. So I get those billing guidelines and Walmart will say, hey, this is what we are willing to pay for.

00;03;08;11 - 00;03;43;02
Deborah Sandlin
And they give codes and and their instructions and the agreements that comes with the legal spin company where I am. So then the law firms will send in their invoices, their billable hours. And as a compliance analyst, I will take the guidelines that my client has already put forth and weigh that against those invoices. And I'll either reduce them or eliminate them based only on the guidelines that my client has, because ultimately I'm working for Walmart.

00;03;43;04 - 00;04;04;17
Host
Sure. So, you know, my background is, before working for the state in different functions. I was, a county attorney and a city attorney. But then in private practice, I was what we would call a street lawyer. Right. Okay. Taking different kinds of cases. So billable hours was really sort of a pain in the neck with you, right?

00;04;04;20 - 00;04;12;00
Host
But there are firms, though, that what you're talking about, they might work for an insurance company. Maybe they do defense work.

00;04;12;03 - 00;04;12;29
Deborah Sandlin


00;04;12;29 - 00;04;14;07
Host
Worker's comp.

00;04;14;09 - 00;04;15;15
Deborah Sandlin
Pardon me. Worker's comp.

00;04;15;15 - 00;04;35;07
Host
Worker's comp. They may have a private client like Walmart that they do work for. And especially younger attorneys, newer attorneys I should say the idea, the very concept of tracking my activities and keeping track of it by hour. It's pretty foreign, right?

00;04;35;09 - 00;04;58;13
Deborah Sandlin
It can be. But you have to understand that in a law firm, a traditional type law firm, they are accustomed to keeping hours. That's what they do. And paralegals as well. They keep hours. They have software that assist them in keeping up with those hours. But the software has to be conducive to the business that they're in, the type of law that they practice.

00;04;58;14 - 00;05;19;12
Deborah Sandlin
So when I see it, it makes sense, right? So the legal span company will employ attorneys and paralegals and other legal professionals that understand the inner workings of a law firm or that area of law. And that's how we know what to reduce or what to eliminate or what to leave alone.

00;05;19;18 - 00;05;38;13
Host
Yeah, I'm going to come to that work in just a minute. Let me just say that when I go to law schools and, and talk to, law students, usually I'm trying to get to the three Ls that just before they graduate, I try to explain to them that you're about to embark in changing the way you look at life, because now we're talking about the billable hour.

00;05;38;15 - 00;06;06;11
Host
And part of that as it relates to indigent services is, is it's guided by rule 13, which is guided by the billable hour, which is really the standard, right, in the legal profession. I mean, there might be firms that do a flat rate fees for maybe a will, or maybe they'll say we'll do a misdemeanor for $500 or, you know, I have a basic divorce that I do that if it's not contested, I'll, you know, you pay me $1,500 or something like that.

00;06;06;13 - 00;06;27;25
Host
Most firms, in fact, we have rules of professional responsibility that require us to if we receive money, we're going to bill against that money. We have to put it into a trust fund and trust account, and then we have to bill against that. So billable hour, it's almost hard to escape. And it really works with indigent services too, because that's the way rule 13 is based on.

00;06;27;25 - 00;06;37;18
Host
And it's really the standard. And, and I think that a lot of attorneys, like I said, newer attorneys, they've got to get themselves sort of,

00;06;37;21 - 00;06;38;18
Deborah Sandlin
Acclimated.

00;06;38;18 - 00;06;53;09
Host
Yeah. Acclimated to, to to thinking through. Now, the companies that you work for, could be individual companies. But the work you do is basically looking at the invoices of these billable hours.

00;06;53;09 - 00;06;54;16
Deborah Sandlin
Right, exactly.

00;06;54;16 - 00;07;09;05
Host
And if I understand what you do is you'll say, okay, drafted a motion for summary judgment and brief 7.5 hours. You actually have guidelines that talk about how much time can will you.

00;07;09;09 - 00;07;35;18
Deborah Sandlin
Exactly to be paid in a case like the example that you just gave? If it goes, let's say right up to eight hours, then I might put a note out there saying this entry exceeds the eight hour a day. Let's say it's eight hours and 30 minutes. I might put that out there and still make necessary adjustments, or I may not have to, but attorneys have to be careful not to block bill.

00;07;35;20 - 00;07;54;02
Host
Okay. And this is something we do in indigent services. And I want to remind my listeners today, Deborah's not working and talking about doing this as one of my auditors in the indigent services team. This is this is the work you do for the broader legal community outside of your work here at the AOC. Exactly. And so this block billing.

00;07;54;07 - 00;07;56;19
Host
Tell us about block billing and what that means.

00;07;56;25 - 00;08;29;20
Deborah Sandlin
Well, simply, it could be a telephone call to John Doe regarding deposition and email to, co-counsel for XYZ. That's block billing. So what would happen is the code that I would use would be B1, which means bundle. And I would take all that time because that's what it requires me to do. And then in the explanation I would put email telephone call.

00;08;29;22 - 00;08;39;02
Deborah Sandlin
So that tells the attorney or the billing coordinator of that firm that that has to be split up to be two entries and not just one.

00;08;39;04 - 00;08;54;20
Host
In the standard, that the that the indigent services team uses. Rule 13 basically doesn't lay this out, but it's the standard that we use. The federal courts use is that we look for attorneys to bill in tenths of an hour, right at something.

00;08;54;21 - 00;08;55;26
Deborah Sandlin
6/10.

00;08;55;28 - 00;09;10;12
Host
6/10 of an hour. So, so when you see one hour, this one hour, one hour, one hour, seven hours, six hours, rounded numbers, that's not something that's going to pass the snuff test right in, in the in the legal community at large.

00;09;10;13 - 00;09;43;19
Deborah Sandlin
No. And the one thing that would help, help them, at least in the law firm arena that they have the proper software. Software makes the difference depending on the software that a firm uses, it might be something that things on there, when they try to round the outside of the tense right? Maybe it just depends on the firm it depends on, because a lot of my clients are in California, so I may speak to them if they get nervous and have a problem, they want to talk to me.

00;09;43;21 - 00;10;00;20
Deborah Sandlin
I may never speak to them, it just depends. But if something if I end up deducting more than they are willing to let go of, then they want to call and say, what are you doing? You know, that kind of thing. And I may have to explain it based on the billing guidelines.

00;10;00;23 - 00;10;03;14
Host
Right. So you have actually a set of billing guidelines.

00;10;03;14 - 00;10;03;29
Deborah Sandlin
I do.

00;10;04;01 - 00;10;24;16
Host
It says we're not paying more than X dollars for these kinds of activities. Right, right. And the good side is, is that's not something that the indigent know. Representation attorneys, the attorneys who take appointed cases, right. They don't. Our attorney, our auditors aren't looking for that so much now they they will flag one and bring it to my attention.

00;10;24;16 - 00;10;38;06
Host
If it looks way out of line with something they're used to seeing. Right. But they don't know. This is an interesting, work that you're involved in. And you do so much so that it you recently wrote an article.

00;10;38;09 - 00;11;19;21
Deborah Sandlin
I did write an article. I was so excited about that. So occasionally I will work with the National Association for Legal Assistance, better known as Nala and I. I've done some webinars for them, and one of the webinars that I did was a class that I created, called To Thine Own Billing Be True. And in that article I discussed what legal billing was, the different types of legal billing, which you've already named, and just talked to them or was talking to the audience, the attorneys and other legal professionals about how best to keep up with their billing.

00;11;19;23 - 00;11;37;18
Deborah Sandlin
And when you keep contemporaneous notes and you and you have to be disciplined when you do this, when you do that, it kind of makes that whole billing process easy, and you don't wait to the end of the day or the end of the week when you've forgotten half of what you've done, and then you put in time out there.

00;11;37;20 - 00;11;46;00
Deborah Sandlin
That may not be as accurate, because at the end of the day, you really want to focus on the client. Sure, that's what's important.

00;11;46;03 - 00;12;06;11
Host
And, you know, I read your article, it was it was a condensed article, but it was it was very good. And, you know, it makes me think back to something you just said about having the right software, because some software issue, you can actually create Microsoft Word documents in them, and it will actually help track your time, if I'm not mistaken.

00;12;06;11 - 00;12;06;16
Host
Right.

00;12;06;16 - 00;12;07;27
Deborah Sandlin
It can, it can.

00;12;08;03 - 00;12;18;28
Host
That's what I thought. And I've used different kinds of time tracking, time management, and billing, legal programs. There's a lot out there for small attorneys. Large attorneys.

00;12;18;28 - 00;12;47;07
Deborah Sandlin
There are so many, so many. And the firm decides what works best for them. And it sometimes is through trial and error, you know, you really. But even in having the proper software, there's still a certain amount of discipline that has to be there as well. You have to keep records and take notes simultaneously while you're working. And it takes a little while, especially for new legal professionals.

00;12;47;07 - 00;12;51;02
Deborah Sandlin
It takes a while because if you're just graduating and getting into the law firm.

00;12;51;06 - 00;12;53;26
Host
And a normal person. Yeah, normal life.

00;12;53;28 - 00;13;10;29
Deborah Sandlin
And this is foreign to you, you're sitting there thinking, now what did I do and how did I do it? And how do I put it on this in the software? And it goes on and on and on. And after a while, though, when you understand that that's your money, that's your job, literally that's your job.

00;13;10;29 - 00;13;21;13
Deborah Sandlin
That may be bonuses at the end of the year. On how much you've billed throughout the year. It can be a lot of different things or incentives that the law firm was set up for you.

00;13;21;13 - 00;13;30;10
Host
So and of course, attorneys who take appointed cases, can see bonuses. In fact, we we want to see them get more money.

00;13;30;10 - 00;13;32;03
Deborah Sandlin
That’s the advantage of being a paralegal.

00;13;32;03 - 00;13;58;17
Host
Yeah. That's right. But, you know, we do. Our rule says that, you know, counsel will be held to a high degree of care and keeping of contemporaneous time records supporting their claims and in the application for payment, and that we ask them to distinguish between in court hours and out of court hours. And, and sometimes we have to ask them for the contemporaneous time records to support their, their, their claims.

00;13;58;20 - 00;14;19;00
Host
We do allow them some things that probably wouldn't pass snuff for you, for yours. So, like, you know, on a docket call day in General Sessions court, it can be a crazy busy day. You got the public defender, the DA's going back and forth, and then you have the attorney who's taken appointed counsel where he might get appointed, or she might get appointed to 3 or 4 clients over here and over there.

00;14;19;06 - 00;14;43;15
Host
And they're moving between the judge and the Da and the client and, you know, trying to talk to the PD. Why are you you know, you've got the codefendant and, you know, so what we allow them to do in those cases is we allow them to just, say, okay, if you were in court for that three hours, you can sort of put that, you know, a portion that to each the total amount of time to each client that wouldn't pass enough.

00;14;43;17 - 00;15;15;28
Deborah Sandlin
For, for you have to really because the attorneys that I work with, they they go to court as well and they are preparing for trials. But that's a lot different than what you're saying. Right. And I think that, the attorneys in a situation like what you described, they still have to set up some kind of routine to where they can be as true to their billing, which as much integrity as possible so that they will come out, at least, if not on point, very close to it.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;40;06
Host
So the listeners of this podcast by now are sick of hearing me say back in my day, but 20 years ago, when I was taking appointed counsel, taking appointed cases, I learned to keep, my, my day, I think I had a day runner at one time and then, eventually got, the, Franklin planner.

00;15;40;08 - 00;15;42;16
Host
Yeah. I still use my Franklin planner, by the way.

00;15;42;19 - 00;15;43;19
Deborah Sandlin
Those were good.

00;15;43;24 - 00;16;02;05
Host
Yeah, I know, and I always kept it with me. The worst thing that happened was when blackberries came out and I tried to use BlackBerry, and it didn't communicate with the law firm scheduling. And so I would sit in court, and I remember the judge one time just looking at me saying, Mr. Byrd, are you available on this date?

00;16;02;09 - 00;16;09;02
Host
I'm, give me just a minute, Your Honor, Mr. Byrd, Mr. Byrd. And finally, just saying, just go call them.

00;16;09;08 - 00;16;10;18
Deborah Sandlin
Right. You know.

00;16;10;20 - 00;16;34;09
Host
So, you know, it is a discipline, and it's something that attorneys have to do. Well, you did a great job on the article. I love talking to you because even though what your work is is different than the indigent representation, it is still very common. It's very connected. It's, you know, our system reflects what the federal system is, in a lot of ways, the CJA panels.

00;16;34;16 - 00;16;51;28
Host
And so, we really appreciate you and thank you. In terms of what you do on the other issues, on the other things you do for us and legal services, and judicial development, which I am part of that. Yes. My division is part of that. You're just outstanding. And I appreciate your friendship and appreciate you being with me here today.

00;16;52;01 - 00;16;55;05
Deborah Sandlin
Thank you so much for having me. It was a great opportunity.

00;16;55;08 - 00;17;01;02
Host
For more information, check out the Indigent Representation web page at tncourts.gov.