Ep. 51 Transforming Court Technology Statewide

Tennessee is in the process of modernizing the technology used in the state’s court system. This may not seem like a big deal- we all go through technology upgrades from time to time. But it is nothing short of transformational in the state. Why? Because Tennessee’s court system is non-consolidated. That means we have a fragmented court system across the state. It makes case management, data collection and overall access to justice much more challenging.

Tennessee Senator John Stevens, a member of the judiciary committee, joins us for a look at what’s ahead and why it’s so important.

Transcript

00;00;00;13 - 00;00;23;15
Host
Hello and welcome to Tennessee Court Talk. I'm your host, Samantha Fisher. Today we are talking tech. Court tech. Tennessee is in the process of modernizing the technology used in the state's court system. And this may not seem like a big deal, because, you know, we all go through technology upgrades from time to time, but this is nothing short of transformational in this state.

00;00;23;17 - 00;00;48;20
Host
Why? Because unlike many other states, the Tennessee Court System is non-consolidated. So that means we have a fragmented court system across the state. It makes things like case management, data collection, and overall access to justice. Much more challenging. Joining me today, one of our elected representatives, who sits on the Judiciary Committee and is also a lawyer himself. Senator John Stevens.

00;00;48;26 - 00;00;49;14
Senator Stevens
Good morning.

00;00;49;14 - 00;00;51;03
Host
Senator. Thanks for joining us today.

00;00;51;04 - 00;00;52;28
Senator Stevens
My pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invite.

00;00;53;01 - 00;01;11;19
Host
Senator Stevens, as you are well aware, back in 2024, the Tennessee General Assembly passed a law that the Administrative Office of the Courts would create a centralized system for the entire court system. So I want to start with the basics. Why in Tennessee do we need a uniform court technology solution?

00;01;11;23 - 00;01;36;03
Senator Stevens
It's been a real challenge through the years as we see technology across the private sector make more efficient. But as a legislator, as we are trying to think about, you know, how best to spend state dollars, look for efficiencies in government and how things operate. It's such a challenge to get data and information out of the judicial branch through no fault of their own.

00;01;36;09 - 00;02;05;05
Senator Stevens
It's just we live in a much more antiquated system, paper based. Still, if we're looking for, you know, data on local prisons and or local jails and who's being held here and, and what are the charges and trends that are going across the state? All kinds of things that we as legislators, you know, think about in policymakers trying to fashion good policy for the state and make people safe, which is what they demand of us.

00;02;05;10 - 00;02;27;18
Senator Stevens
It's really hard to get data because it's it's, you know, you have a juvenile system. You have. Each county does it differently. Each clerk may choose to do it differently than this clerk or and you know, the presiding judge of this Judicial District prefers. I mean, it's just very difficult. It's been a system that served us well.

00;02;27;18 - 00;02;42;23
Senator Stevens
And there's some positives to it, but also just from a policymaking and efficiency standpoint as well as we've seen, you know, public safety concerns come out of it as well. It was something that I felt passionately about that we need to fix this.

00;02;42;26 - 00;02;46;08
Host
Can you tell me more about some of those concerns, those public safety concerns?

00;02;46;14 - 00;03;12;25
Senator Stevens
Well, I mean, and I haven't done a court appointed criminal case in, in, many years now. But I remember being and, you know, you show up for arraignment day, you've been appointed. You're not entirely clear on what your own client's criminal history is. You certainly don't know if they are out on bond in another county somewhere, or they have a hold on them from Hawkins County or, you know, you don't.

00;03;12;29 - 00;03;32;09
Senator Stevens
You really. There's no where you can really find out either or. It's not like some real quick you can find out. I know people think that's shocking, but, you know, even criminal defendants aren't real honest with their own attorney. And so you're kidding. Yeah. They're not. They're not always, you know, willing to tell you. Oh, yeah. By the way, you work these charges out.

00;03;32;10 - 00;03;54;24
Senator Stevens
And really, I'm more worried about what I absconded from or, that, Anyway, you're out on bond somewhere, and they don't want to tell you that. And so, you know, that's the practical side of it, is the concerns that the defense attorney doesn't know. Maybe the D.A. doesn't know. Certainly the Circuit or General Sessions Judge probably doesn't know either.

00;03;54;26 - 00;04;12;25
Senator Stevens
The true what's going on? How who is this person? Are they on some kind of crime spree? And we, you know, so it's really difficult in those circumstances. The public safety side of it, of just who are these people and what are they doing in this courtroom and where else? Who else is waiting on them?

00;04;12;28 - 00;04;32;01
Host
That's a great example. I know there are big administrative challenges, too, because we hear from judges especially. I'm thinking of Circuit Court judges who are driving around to different counties. And if you're dealing with paper based systems and business hours and, you know, suddenly, you know, they've got a case in a different county, maybe can't get Ahold of somebody to get the court history.

00;04;32;09 - 00;04;42;05
Host
It just becomes, you know, just a lot of time is spent just trying to get, you know, the basics, the the documents they need and get up to speed before the case is heard.

00;04;42;07 - 00;04;59;28
Senator Stevens
Yeah. Because, I mean, and I know even in the civil side, it's not a big deal. But if you can convince the court to hear your you have a scheduled if something is going on, let's say it's on adoption and you're trying to get somebody adopted for another purpose. Timing wise, maybe a passport, you know, whatever it is, a judge.

00;04;59;29 - 00;05;19;04
Senator Stevens
Can you hear me? Well, we won't I won't be there for two weeks in a rural circuit like mine. Yeah. We're not going to be in your court for for two weeks. But judges are great. They'll work with you. They'll say, hey, come over, I'll be in, you know, Benton County or Henry County, you know, Friday. Grab the court file and bring it to me.

00;05;19;07 - 00;05;40;13
Senator Stevens
But, I mean, if there were something contested about that, that's that's probably not going to work, because that means the judge isn't even going to look through the file. They don't even know what's coming. You know, they're just trying to be accommodating to maybe a set of attorneys. And that's great. They do that all the time. You know, if I were the judge, I'd be very nervous about that.

00;05;40;13 - 00;05;45;07
Senator Stevens
I'm like, I don't want to come in cold on this. I want to look through the file. I want to kind of know what I'm getting into.

00;05;45;09 - 00;06;04;23
Host
Absolutely. You're also an attorney. That's the main job. Right. And and so from the perspective of an attorney, what have been some of the challenges that you've observed or heard about? With, with our non-consolidated non centralized court system and all these different technology platforms going on across the state.

00;06;04;25 - 00;06;26;27
Senator Stevens
Yeah, I mean, my practice is mainly probate estate planning type, practice. So, you know, it's nothing for me to, you know, if I need to file in in Montgomery County, that's great. They have an electronic filing system. And if I need to file in Rutherford County, what's great, they have an electronic file like Davidson County.

00;06;26;27 - 00;06;52;21
Senator Stevens
They have an electronic filing system Shelby County. Yeah. The problem is that's five passwords. That's five logins. That's five systems that I have to try to understand. Or my staff has to try to understand the nuances of how to just file it. Yeah, I know in Davidson County out of I had a probate matter few years ago. And under their system you upload your documents, you're submitting, you know, you go through it.

00;06;52;21 - 00;07;11;00
Senator Stevens
And at one point it looked like I owed $287. Oh, for just, you know, doing it. And then the clerk was like, you don't know anything for whatever. Know I can't remember the details because I didn't really understand what a what it was. And they they're like, you don't know that. You don't know that. And I was like, I didn't know.

00;07;11;03 - 00;07;29;14
Senator Stevens
I mean, I'm using this system for the first time as an out-of-state or an out of county. You know, I don't practice there all the time. That's the difficult part, especially because I'm a solo essentially. Also. And so young lawyer, I can imagine young lawyers. You really don't even have staff members trying to navigate on behalf of their clients all these different systems.

00;07;29;14 - 00;08;00;08
Senator Stevens
And I can't imagine if if more counties go with an online system, you have 95 separate log ins, 95 separate pass, 95 separate vendors and systems, and how you're supposed to upload this way. I mean, it's just we can't do that. Yeah. There's a bigger concern to that. I'm glad to get into you and ask me. But also, I mean, just from a not just good government, but, you know, nobody's required to hire an attorney for a lot of different things.

00;08;00;12 - 00;08;03;14
Senator Stevens
And so as a citizen, how are you supposed to navigate that.

00;08;03;16 - 00;08;06;12
Host
Right Pro Se litigants who come in and are representing themselves.

00;08;06;18 - 00;08;23;12
Senator Stevens
Right. I mean, you know, that's hard enough. I don't recommend it. You know, if any Pro Se’s are out there get you a good lawyer just for, you know, from a private practice standpoint, you know, that's not the way our system is, but you can you can represent yourself if you choose to. The government itself shouldn't be an impediment to that.

00;08;23;14 - 00;08;36;13
Senator Stevens
You should put your thumb on the scale towards, you know, while a lawyer should be a good thing, you should hire one. It's smart to do it. But you know, if you don't want to, you don't have to. We shouldn't have a system that forces you to.

00;08;36;20 - 00;08;56;19
Host
Exactly. Yeah. It's an access to justice issue as well. Well, you had mentioned, much of the district you represent is rural. You're in district 24. What did what did you hear from from judges in your district about this issue that you just described? You know, it's not unified. You have all these different passwords. It's what are some of the things that they've shared with you?

00;08;56;20 - 00;09;20;21
Senator Stevens
There is support for an electronic filing system. I think it's a just the the challenges. What the AOC is just saying is what does that look like? How does that work? I mean, what's that going to look like? I mean, I've always been in favor of as much as we can get the federal system, a pacer type system, you know, one system, one login, one password, you learn how to do it.

00;09;20;21 - 00;09;29;08
Senator Stevens
It works. It's available everywhere. The documents are available anywhere. That's what I've always thought we should strive to do.

00;09;29;11 - 00;09;37;25
Host
Are you aware of what other states maybe, you know, nearby us are doing and how that where Tennessee stands and all this.

00;09;37;28 - 00;10;03;14
Senator Stevens
Yeah, I had we had a few conversations, especially after, it was it was funded in the budget a few years ago. We've had some conversations with obviously the AOC about, you know, you all started digging in, going, okay, what one's best practices, what other states do, what do we get into. And so I have a little bit more awareness of, you know, other states that have done it, which is great because you learn from their mistakes.

00;10;03;14 - 00;10;20;03
Senator Stevens
And I'm sure they've made them. And how, you know, it's like building a house. Yep. You get into it and then all of a sudden six months later, like, you know, we really shouldn't have done this. Yeah, I wish we'd have done that. And so, you know, I'm glad not to be the tip of the spear on this issue.

00;10;20;03 - 00;10;34;15
Senator Stevens
I'm glad to call up our, friends in other states. I think North Carolina, maybe. I mean, I'm trying to, from memory thinking who else did it, but, you know, it's good. It's good to lean on the court systems of other states that have done it and find out, you know, where they would have put the calls it.

00;10;34;17 - 00;11;12;16
Host
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, at the time of this recording, the request for proposals has been issued and the procurement that's open to any vendor capable of providing a single solution offering or a partnered solution meeting the requirements. So, Senator Stevens, once this is, you know, once a vendor is selected and, you know, the systems are built. And just to back up real quick, you know, the AOC has been working with with Gartner Consulting to examine the current state of affairs, the challenges that have that have been existing, and where we want to get to and then how we're, how we're going to get there and what kind of systems are going to, you

00;11;12;16 - 00;11;19;09
Host
know, be the solution that we need. But what do you think? What do you anticipate some of the challenges of statewide implementation might be?

00;11;19;15 - 00;11;48;06
Senator Stevens
Because we are a, when you have an urban rural division, always a challenge in a rural area. You know, a lot of people don't understand that some of these offices, I mean, you know, your local county, your your circuit court clerk isn't under the control of the state. That's a locally elected official who doesn't necessarily answer to anybody in Nashville.

00;11;48;06 - 00;12;06;21
Senator Stevens
They answer to their constituents. And so you always have, you know, people that are used to doing it the way we've always done things. And I don't know why we want to change. And so that's always a challenge. There's not accountability. You know, if they refuse, if somebody refuses to do it, our way, how do you make them.

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;19;01
Senator Stevens
Yeah. You know, there's that structural challenge within our system. Those are some of the challenges as we've talked about it. That's kind of one of the challenges we've had is just how it okay. Yeah yeah we think this is great. But how do you how is this actually right.

00;12;19;08 - 00;12;36;23
Host
And you know I get the hesitation, you know, every time you change jobs, every time, you know, every few years you need to adopt and consider a new and better way of doing things because technology's always changing. And I'll just speak personally, you know, the older I get, the less excited I am to go through that process again.

00;12;36;23 - 00;12;49;24
Host
But typically, once you're over the hump of it and you realize, you know, the efficiencies that are created and the ways that it can help you do your job more seamlessly, then it's all good. But you. But getting there, I get it. It's a process.

00;12;49;26 - 00;13;23;00
Senator Stevens
And one of the things about the the initial funding in this was, you know, we essentially came up with a number. We tried to we baseline it from other states and what they had at the time they did it. And then, fortunately, working with Brandon Gibson in the, in the Governor's office, we wanted to put way more money on this than we thought it would cost, because I, I wanted it to be a situation to where if it is a pacer type system, that everybody gets it.

00;13;23;02 - 00;13;32;16
Senator Stevens
It's the same one statewide that it would cover not only the the system itself, but also the computer. The training.

00;13;32;16 - 00;13;33;07
Host
Yes.

00;13;33;09 - 00;13;58;19
Senator Stevens
Everything I wanted it to be the, the there would be no local cost. So to speak of implementation. It's going to be. Look, since we as a state are forcing this on you, you shouldn't have to have any, obligation, local share. Exactly. It should be something they paid for. This is what we're doing. We're going to help you in any way, shape or form we can because it's that important.

00;13;58;21 - 00;14;10;02
Senator Stevens
I really do think from a justice standpoint, it's just that important. It needs to be done well. It needs to be done right. It needs to be functional, and it just needs to serve the taxpayers.

00;14;10;04 - 00;14;19;00
Host
How do you the future state, how do you sort of envision and imagine it as someone who's been involved in, you know, thinking about it, talking about it, procuring the money for it?

00;14;19;08 - 00;14;39;16
Senator Stevens
I'm excited for it. One having the the the hardest part is usually the funding. Now, granted, you know, we've we've all seen the news about Elon Musk even with President Trump, you see from a private sector, the private sector, the way they operate is they know and they understand and lawyers understand this to money is time.

00;14;39;18 - 00;14;40;16
Host
That's right.

00;14;40;19 - 00;15;11;02
Senator Stevens
And time is money. You have the speed with which you have to do things in order to not run out of money, which is we do in government all the time, especially with computer systems. We we start them and then they, they don't work. And you do it over and it's five years later, we just you have to be as fast as possible with these things, because the longer it's not done, the less value of money over time, those funding, the funding, it goes away.

00;15;11;08 - 00;15;16;05
Senator Stevens
I mean, you don't have enough of want to do it, right? But we also have to do it fast, as fast as possible.

00;15;16;05 - 00;15;26;04
Host
When the project is in motion. And, we look forward to talking to you more about it as it, as it comes along. So thank you for all your involvement and support, Senator, and thank you for coming on the podcast.

00;15;26;08 - 00;15;43;24
Senator Stevens
I appreciate it. I'm glad to be able to, share at least my thoughts on it and, work with the court. They've done they've been a great partner in this. Their team's been great. The court's been very supportive. But it is going to take it's it's a big ask. It's a big project, but it's extremely important.

00;15;44;00 - 00;16;03;08
Senator Stevens
You didn't ask me this. And I think we're trying to wrap up. But I was thinking about it. I had a client yesterday. We're trying you know, in today's world clients expect oh, I'll just can't you just DocuSign or electronic. It's just send me this email. File it. They don't even think that. No. I'm going to mail it to you.

00;16;03;11 - 00;16;13;05
Senator Stevens
Yeah. You're going to mail it back? I'm going to then mail it to the court to file. I mean that is horse and buggy.

00;16;13;11 - 00;16;27;21
Host
You're right. People expect on demand. Do it online. That is the consumer. And I don't want to say that you're consumer of the court system. But you understand my point. Yeah that this is the way people are used to interacting with institutions, agencies, etc.. Yeah.

00;16;27;21 - 00;16;49;21
Senator Stevens
You have two different I mean, you know, the the civil and the criminal justice systems are two separate systems. They operate very differently. But on civil side, especially the the people involved with that have an expectation, that is when they when they see what it is, they're shocked. They can't believe that I can't just DocuSign and upload.

00;16;49;21 - 00;17;10;25
Senator Stevens
And this is this should take a day. They should take a half a day. We should have it by the end of the day. And it's like, no, with the mail system now, it's going to take maybe 2 or 3 weeks, especially if it's a large packet in the rural area. Yeah. Or ever. I mean, I don't know how many times in the last six weeks or six months I've had, you know, mail just gone and then it shows up a year later, it just comes back.

00;17;10;25 - 00;17;12;22
Senator Stevens
Returned. Yeah. Undeliverable.

00;17;12;27 - 00;17;18;26
Host
And if this is your first experience interacting with the judiciary, that's that's not a great experience.

00;17;18;26 - 00;17;31;15
Senator Stevens
Well, you know, I don't a shock shocked anybody listening to this. But the court system and lawyers in particular, we don't have all that great reputation anyway for speed of accomplishing things. And this isn't our fault.

00;17;31;19 - 00;17;35;16
Host
Onward to a better and more technologically advanced solution.

00;17;35;16 - 00;17;37;19
Senator Stevens
Hopefully in the near future we'll.

00;17;37;19 - 00;17;47;16
Host
Continue to chat. Thank you so much for coming on, Senator Stevens. And if you are listening and you want more information about Tennessee Courts, please visit our website tncourts.gov.