Ep. 8 Women in the Judiciary

About 25 percent of state judges in Tennessee are female, which places Tennessee 45th out of 50 states for women in the judiciary. In this episode, we sit down with Tennessee Supreme Court Justice Connie Clark, Court of Appeal Judge Carma Dennis McGee, Chancellor Jerri Bryant and Judge Angelita Blackshear Dalton to discuss the importance of diversity on the bench, why they decided to run, and how they balance campaigns and work with family and other obligations. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;01;11 - 00;00;25;06
Voice Over
Tennessee. Court Talk is a podcast presented by the Tennessee Supreme Court Administrative Office of the courts. The aim of the podcast is to improve the administration of justice in state courts through education and understanding. The target audience varies and is announced in the beginning of each episode. Welcome to Tennessee Court top.

00;00;25;08 - 00;00;48;12
Host
I'm your host, Barbara Peck. Today we are talking about women in the state judiciary, and this podcast is intended for all audiences. Our first guest is Tennessee Supreme Court Justice Connie Clark. Justice Clark joined the Supreme Court in 2005 and served as Chief Justice from 2010 to 2012. Prior to serving on the court, she was a trial judge in Tennessee's 21st Judicial District in Middle Tennessee for more than ten years.

00;00;48;12 - 00;01;08;28
Host
Our second guest is Judge Carver Dennis McGhee. Judge McGhee is the newest member of the Court of Appeals, and previously served as a Chancellor in the 24th Judicial District in West Tennessee, a position she held for five years. Our third guest is Chancellor Jarrod Bryant. Chancellor Bryant serves in the 10th Judicial District in East Tennessee, and she first joined the bench in 1998.

00;01;09;00 - 00;01;23;00
Host
Our final guest is Judge Angelita Blackshear Dalton. She's a criminal court judge in the 20th Judicial District, which encompasses Nashville. Prior to becoming a criminal court judge, she was a general sessions judge in Nashville. Welcome to everyone.

00;01;23;01 - 00;01;23;16
Chancellor Bryant
Thank you.

00;01;23;17 - 00;01;23;27
Judge McGee
Thank you.

00;01;23;29 - 00;01;41;18
Host
Thank you. So I'll start off first with about 25% of the state judges in Tennessee are female, which means there are about 40 state female judges in the state. This actually places Tennessee 45th out of 50 states for women in the judiciary. Justice Clark, what is your reaction to those statistics?

00;01;41;20 - 00;02;05;27
Justice Clark
Well, when I became a trial judge in 1989, I was judge number six out of 150. And that did not help Tennessee improve from being 50th. And so we have come some distance since then. But given the number of excellent women attorneys we have in Tennessee now, it disappoints me that we're not progressing faster and further.

00;02;06;02 - 00;02;30;06
Host
And that is one of the statistics we have. So from 1970 to 1980, the number of women judges grew from about 6% to 17% nationwide. But over the last 40 years, there's been a very slow creep forward. We're about 32, 33% nationwide now. So what do you think are some of the biggest obstacles women face in becoming judges, Chancellor Bryant?

00;02;30;08 - 00;02;57;26
Chancellor Bryant
Well, I, I'm surprised that that's the only a 10% growth in that number of years. I think that it's it's, women have traditionally been more the parent that's at home taking care of the kids. I know when I first, started the practice of law, my husband and I had that discussion, and he he was going to be the one that that did not have kid duty.

00;02;57;29 - 00;03;18;06
Chancellor Bryant
And so that's something that I think that, that a lot of women choose, as far as part of their career is that they step back and take it, take some more time on the on the child rearing part of it. I think it's just a career path interruption in particularly in a rural area.

00;03;18;09 - 00;03;19;24
Host
Judge McGee, your thoughts?

00;03;19;24 - 00;03;40;14
Judge McGee
I would agree with that. I think that oftentimes when women begin their careers, you know, you get out of law school in the in the years when you first begin your career, are also the times when you start thinking about having a family. And so I think that it's, it sometimes, of course, is tough to do both at the same time.

00;03;40;15 - 00;03;51;22
Judge McGee
But I think that that women in career women sometimes naturally take a step back from their career out of necessity during those years, especially the years when their children are very young.

00;03;51;22 - 00;03;53;06
Host
And Judge Dalton, what are your thoughts?

00;03;53;07 - 00;04;20;02
Judge Dalton
I agree 100%, and I know that when I first decided to run for judge in 2006 and General Sessions, that was something that I thought about, my husband was very supportive and remains very supportive, of my career choice. We have one son, who is now 16. And the good thing is that he's older and is not as dependent on on us as he was when I first ran for judge in 2006.

00;04;20;02 - 00;04;41;05
Judge Dalton
But it was something that I thought heavily about. Because in running a campaign, especially when no matter where you are, whether you're in a metropolitan area like Davidson County or in some of the rural areas, it's very taxing. And I knew that it would take a lot of time away from my responsibilities as a wife and a mother.

00;04;41;05 - 00;05;07;00
Chancellor Bryant
Particularly, and would go into campaigning particularly. I was very careful about not exposing my children to the media and to, a lot of face time with, with, campaign events or everyplace that I went because I knew going on the bench that, I just did not want them to be easily recognizable. And in small towns that can that can become a problem.

00;05;07;03 - 00;05;30;10
Host
So across the state, if you bring in general sessions judges as well, 23 of Tennessee's 95 counties have at least one female judge, and about 20% of our general sessions judges are female. So if we combine state trial and general sessions, 18 of the 31 judicial districts have at least one female judge, which means there are 13 that are served all by men at the trial level.

00;05;30;12 - 00;05;45;07
Host
And over the years, we've heard a lot of initiatives across the nation about bringing more women into certain professions, ranging from engineering to movie directors to lots of other professions. But why in the law do you feel justice? Clarke it's so important to have diversity.

00;05;45;09 - 00;06;08;18
Justice Clark
Because diversity makes for better judging. People need to trust our court system. They need to know that when they come into court, if they look at the range of of judges that they're going to see folks who look like them, who come from backgrounds similar to theirs. Not everybody has the same philosophy or upbringing, but everybody takes the same oath of office.

00;06;08;21 - 00;06;21;26
Justice Clark
And I think people just feel more comfortable if they recognize that together. There are a group of judges that represent all of the spectrum of the people in that county or that judicial district.

00;06;21;29 - 00;06;42;26
Chancellor Bryant
It also allows, the younger children and the then to get into the high school, college kids and law students to see that this is a valid career path, that there are obstacles may be that they're there, but that they can overcome them and that we can open the door for them.

00;06;42;28 - 00;07;17;08
Judge Dalton
And I agree. And just to expand on on something that, Justice Clarke said, it's very important that every aspect of, of our lives reflects every aspect of our lives, whether it's whatever the industry. And for me, obviously, I chose the law, and it was important to me as a practitioner to go into a courtroom and see a woman who would respect me as a woman and appreciate what I had to bring, as a woman.

00;07;17;11 - 00;07;48;26
Justice Clark
Early in my career as the trial judge, had a divorce, contested divorce action. And as we were getting started, I heard, the husband in that divorce whispered loudly to his attorney. I don't know if I'm going to get a fair shot at this when in. Isn't that judge that just seeking a favor? My wife and I'm thinking to myself, well, what about all the hundreds of years when all judges were men?

00;07;48;26 - 00;08;12;23
Justice Clark
Did women coming into court have to worry about that? That because the judge was a man, she might not get accorded the full justice she was entitled to? And again, I think the more that we can do to overcome that and to help people understand, that that regardless of your background and whatever we are putting aside those things and we were following the law when we're in the courtroom.

00;08;12;25 - 00;08;25;02
Host
And so we've talked a little bit about campaigning, but let's expand that, a little bit as well. So why do you think in particular women are sort of intimidated by the campaign process, and how did you yourself get past that?

00;08;25;05 - 00;08;56;14
Chancellor Bryant
I think it's a lack of knowledge about what goes on. A lot of times politics. And I don't use that as a bad word, but a lot of times campaigning and and what does it take to win an election process is kind of a mystery. And I think that, a lot of women feel like they're kind of outsiders looking in at a process rather than seeing a lot of female mentors that are in the process to help them, run a campaign or teach them how to run a campaign.

00;08;56;15 - 00;09;23;14
Judge Dalton
I remember when I ran in 2006, and I think that this is an example of how supportive my husband was and, like I said, remains today. When I was thinking about running it in the thoughts that were going through my mind. Well, first was I was an unknown in Nashville at the time. I was I don't consider myself a political person, which is a good thing, because judges are not supposed to be political politicians.

00;09;23;16 - 00;09;48;23
Judge Dalton
But, you know, obviously we have to participate in the political process in order to, to, to be elected, in the judiciary. I remember and, when I had the discussion with my husband about running, I thought of every reason why I should not run. And a lot of that had to do with, me being an unknown in Nashville.

00;09;48;25 - 00;10;07;23
Judge Dalton
And a great deal of it had to do with my young son, who at the time was two. He turned three in the middle of the campaign. And that's young in a time when, thought that I should be a mother to my young son. And so my husband said, well, you've you've told me every reason why you should not run.

00;10;07;23 - 00;10;15;27
Judge Dalton
I want you to tell me of a reason why you should run for judge. And we talked about it and...I ran

00;10;16;00 - 00;10;37;16
Judge McGee
I think it's a part of it is because it's the whole campaign process. And running for office is a brutal process. I mean, just the what you and I'm not talking about from the politics standpoint, but I'm talking about everywhere, that you have to be all the time and still do your job and still be a mom and a wife at the same time.

00;10;37;16 - 00;11;08;16
Judge McGee
To my kids were nine and 11 when I first, was appointed and then started campaigning. And, you know, we didn't have a Saturday, or it mostly didn't have an evening during the week that there was not something because I had a five county district. So there was something going on all the time. And in looking at whether or not you're going to undertake this, that's part of the decision you have to make.

00;11;08;16 - 00;11;34;09
Judge McGee
Am I willing to basically commit not only my schedule to this, but commit my family schedule to this, and I didn't. My kids didn't go to everything with me by any means. And, echo, what the other judges have said about the concerns about that. But there still is that commitment from your entire family, and it still affects your entire household and your entire family.

00;11;34;09 - 00;11;52;18
Judge McGee
And my family was very supported and helped tremendously. I couldn't have done it without them and couldn't have done it without their assistance. But I think that looking at that time commitment that's required with not knowing what the outcome is going to be, you know, is, is somewhat of a deterrent for a lot of people.

00;11;52;24 - 00;12;12;26
Justice Clark
I agree with that. And in my case, because I wasn't married, my family pitching in was a broader family. It was my brother and my sister and their children and their spouses. There are lots of pictures we still have of our of the small nieces and nephews participating in this, but it mattered to them sometimes more than me.

00;12;12;26 - 00;12;35;20
Justice Clark
If somebody says an unkind thing about you. My mother, my 90 year old grandmother, the first time I had to run, actively participated in the campaign. But it really hurt them to see and hear the things that were done. And then the other thing I think about, acknowledges a stereotype, but it still is at least 50% of the time accurate.

00;12;35;23 - 00;13;10;16
Justice Clark
I think that women are are, more collaborative. And sometimes we have a harder time standing up and asserting ourselves and saying out loud, I think I would be the best candidate. Was used to earning things on merit as I went through school, and if I worked hard, I would get good grades. And to have to sort of claim my merit, and assert and give instances and refute what other people may say is was harder to do publicly. You really have to learn how to do that.

00;13;10;16 - 00;13;17;22
Host
So let's talk about each of your journeys to the bench, Judge Dalton. So when was the first time you thought I could be a judge? Like, this is something I could do?

00;13;17;24 - 00;13;43;25
Judge Dalton
It was probably when I decided to run and and and I'll be honest with you, coming out of law school, practicing law, I was an assistant D.A. before I, decided to run for judge. I never really at that during that time in my life ever considered running for judge. But when an opportunity presented itself, that's when I began to really think about it, and and it was it was kind of a game changer for me.

00;13;43;27 - 00;14;03;10
Judge Dalton
Because I, I really envisioned myself, I, I enjoyed the work that I did as a prosecutor. I felt that I was doing good work for the community, and it was something that I thought that I could continue to do and possibly one day step out on my own and hang a shingle or go into and go or go into the firm life.

00;14;03;10 - 00;14;12;02
Judge Dalton
But it was, prior to that, I didn't think about running for judge until the opportunity presented itself. And I took advantage of that opportunity.

00;14;12;02 - 00;14;15;11
Host
And Chancellor Bryant, when was the first time you thought I could be a judge.

00;14;15;13 - 00;14;40;21
Chancellor Bryant
A girlfriend? And I talked about it during the 1990 election. We thought that that might be an aspirational goal at some point. Then I moved, I moved back to my hometown and, sometime in early 97, before the 98 election, I had 2 or 3 lawyers approached me to run, which was kind of took me off guard a little bit.

00;14;40;23 - 00;15;06;28
Chancellor Bryant
But, that was something that was very helpful because one of them was very politically active in one county, and another one was politically active in another county. And so, it was interesting to me because they were of the opposite political parties. And I think that was something unusual. But I was also pregnant during that first part of my campaign.

00;15;06;28 - 00;15;27;04
Chancellor Bryant
I had a, I had a two year old and then I was also pregnant. So it, it, it took a little bit of extra thought and a little bit of extra energy. As you know, sometimes we don't always have when we're going along. But but it was probably in, in early 97 before the 98 campaign.

00;15;27;04 - 00;15;34;02
Host
And judge McGee when did you first think you were in Pratt? You were in private practice with your cousin at the time. And,

00;15;34;05 - 00;15;57;26
Judge McGee
I had been in private practice for about 15 years at that time, and the chancellor in our district passed away. He had cancer and passed away. And so there was a vacancy, and I still didn't really seriously think much about it, because the whole campaign process and the whole election process kind of scare me at that time. And I thought, oh, I don't know if I can do that.

00;15;57;27 - 00;16;41;15
Judge McGee
I don't know if I can go through that. And then I had several people approached me and just kept having people approach me. And, my family started saying, well, why not? Why don't you know, why don't you kind of like what Judge Dalton was saying? Well, why, you know, why don't you do that? And so, it just kind of grew on me over a period of a few months until I finally, you know, and and I prayed about it, and I just thought, okay, this is this is, this is something I can go for. And because it like I said earlier, it's a big commitment. You know, once you set out to that path, it's a big commitment to follow through to the end of that election process.

00;16;41;15 - 00;16;46;29
Host
So what was the trigger that sort of made you go from thinking about it to, I'm going to do this.

00;16;47;01 - 00;17;11;11
Judge McGee
I think the more people that just kept contacting me, throughout the area and encouraging me, and I was able to get over that initial fear, you know, like I said of the of the whole campaign run for office process because my, my law partner had been a state representative during part of the time that we had, had our firm.

00;17;11;11 - 00;17;28;02
Judge McGee
And so I knew what I had seen, what he had gone through as far as the constant events, everything that you have to be at, you know, and all those sorts of things. And so I think that it initially had scared me off. But then I said, okay.

00;17;28;05 - 00;17;31;28
Host
Justice Clark, when did you first think I could be a judge? I could do this.

00;17;32;04 - 00;18;01;06
Justice Clark
The first time I ever thought about it was 1986. Our judicial district got an extra judgeship. So it was a new judgeship. There was not an incumbent, and there were 1 or 2 people who came to me to encourage me. And I'd given no thought to that ever. Ultimately, a friend of mine who was just a few years older because I was still in my early 30s, and at that time there weren't many people getting elected in their early 30s.

00;18;01;08 - 00;18;26;25
Justice Clark
But once his friend decided to run as sort of I was off the hook and really thinking about it, I said, I want to support him. I think he will be good. And indeed, he was elected, was very good, and later became my colleague. In 1988, I went along with 2 or 3 other lawyers who practice in Middle Tennessee to talk to then governor McWhorter about the fact that we didn't think he was appointing enough women judges.

00;18;26;28 - 00;18;55;27
Justice Clark
And, he was really gracious with us. He did remind us of the judges. He had appointed and made some of the comments that we're having to make even today. There there are very few women lawyers in a lot of rural counties. There are very there are fewer women to choose from when appointments come up. And then he he said, now, Connie, if like a vacancy ever came up in your district, I would feel very comfortable appointing you.

00;18;56;00 - 00;19;24;05
Justice Clark
But I don't know. I honestly don't know women. And in some judicial districts there are no women effectively practicing. And I went away just thinking. Well, that was very nice of him to say that. It's sort of a throwaway line, but a year later, when I finally decided to do it, was that a judge in my district suddenly retired, and I got a call from the governor, one day saying, this judge is going to announce his retirement on Monday.

00;19;24;08 - 00;19;43;03
Justice Clark
And at that time, there were no merit selection committees. There was the governor just appointed. He said, I want to appoint you. There's going to be a little frenzy. There are a lot of other political people in the district who want to be considered, and I need you to just say yes, right now so that we will be ready on Monday and there will be no, confusion.

00;19;43;03 - 00;20;14;00
Justice Clark
And I won't be bombarded by all these other people and, really, in the space of about two minutes, said yes without thinking a whole lot about it, without thinking of the consequences of leaving the Nashville law firm where I'd been made partner and all of those things, it turned out to be the best decision I ever made. But it was not the careful kind of consideration that many other people have given before they really throw themselves into that life.

00;20;14;06 - 00;20;24;00
Host
So everyone has mentioned a lot about other people encouraging you in the relationship. So what resources and relationships were most important on your road to the bench?

00;20;24;00 - 00;20;47;26
Judge Dalton
Well, first and foremost, family. Because you have to make sure that home is taken care of. And and along with my husband as, as Justice Clarke said, I had extended family, you know, my my parents, my siblings, cousins, high school friends and and everybody that that were able to who's able to step in and assisted that, during that time.

00;20;47;28 - 00;21;33;06
Judge Dalton
But throughout my years, practicing law in the DA's office, fostered relationships with attorneys. Both my colleagues in the DA's office and members of the defense bar who, I would like to say and think, I developed good relationships with and who were also supportive of me, in my campaign. So I think that those are the kinds of things in relationships that helped, me to to make that decision to run for judge and, who helped throughout the campaign process and who also, helped, you know, throughout my years in general Sessions court on the bench and then the subsequent, appointment, by governor has let me know because

00;21;33;06 - 00;21;46;01
Judge Dalton
it all I mean, it's a constant, I think, Judge Justice Clarke, to salute to this. It's a constant thing. You have to maintain those relationships, continue to build those relationships. In a in a positive way.

00;21;46;03 - 00;21;50;11
Host
Chancellor Bryant, what what relationships and resources were most important in your road to the bench?

00;21;50;13 - 00;22;21;27
Chancellor Bryant
I think that when it if you're going to think about that path, you've got to have, relationships in a lot of areas of your life. I think my father in law probably put out as many signs for me as anybody. And he was very energetic. He very much enjoyed doing that. I had some I had lawyer support, which is, which is, I think, good because they can talk in the community about skill sets.

00;22;22;00 - 00;22;50;24
Chancellor Bryant
I had a political mentor who knew how to campaign in a rural community. I'd never campaigned for office before. So I think that having people in, in a lot of different parts of your, your life, your family, your friends and then people that that have the ability to run campaigns was something that just putting all the pieces together helped.

00;22;50;24 - 00;22;51;12
Host
Judge McGee.

00;22;51;13 - 00;23;36;20
Judge McGee
I would definitely agree with what, Chancellor Braun just said. When you're in a rural area, I think it's an entirely different process than really occurs in a in a large, metropolitan type area. And you, it's very important that you have people from, from different fields and different areas that, that know how to, run campaigns and who, it's important that you then you have made a positive impression upon your colleagues and upon the members of the bar, and you know that they have a respect for you and and that they can, attest to your abilities or your competence.

00;23;36;22 - 00;23;52;20
Judge McGee
And so and then, you know, just like, Judge Dalton said as well, your family, you know, that that's first and foremost, you've got to have your family's support, and then you have a network of friends who are able to support, too. And so I think it grows from that.

00;23;52;23 - 00;24;10;25
Chancellor Bryant
And I don't want to leave out somebody that can raise money, but it is not is not cheap to run a campaign. Even if you're doing a lot of the work yourself, you still have to buy supplies. You still have to. There's just lots of expenses that go along with campaigns.

00;24;10;25 - 00;24;37;28
Judge Dalton
And if I can add to that, I mean, obviously as judges, we're in a different position as others who run for other political offices, and you have to have that person who is effective at raising money because we can't make that ask. And so people have to be willing to trust that the person who's going to be raising that money for, for me, needs to trust that I'm going to be good at what I'm doing. And so that that's really key and very important.

00;24;38;00 - 00;25;00;04
Justice Clark
And I just want to add something that has been key to me in my whole judicial career. In addition to family and key friends, you can raise money and everybody else in the community because I too was running in the community where I had grown. I didn't have opposition. In the first race I ran, nine months after I was appointed judge.

00;25;00;06 - 00;25;30;06
Justice Clark
Eight years later, I did, and there had been a transition in Williamson County, one of the four counties in which I ran where all, judicial races that had been run as independents had moved into party primaries. But both in that race in 1998 and in the 2014 statewide race that three members of the Supreme Court ultimately ran because on a yes or no vote, some folks chose to to run a Vote No campaign against us.

00;25;30;09 - 00;25;57;01
Justice Clark
My lifelong friends, who were of the opposite political party, at some political risk to themselves, the county mayor and our all of our state representatives and local elected county officials and the sheriff and really everybody else stood up and said, this should not be a Partizan race. I've known this woman all my life, and I believe she will be the best judge.

00;25;57;03 - 00;26;19;06
Justice Clark
And I don't think either in my county or in the state, I could have accomplished success, except for those people being willing to put what they believe was the best interests of the citizens ahead of perhaps what their party might have required them to do. I was amazed, and I'll always be grateful.

00;26;19;08 - 00;26;23;11
Host
So how is it different running the Supreme Court campaign?

00;26;23;13 - 00;26;50;23
Justice Clark
Well, in 2006, it was a yes no campaign, but it really wasn't a campaign. There was an evaluation commission. You appeared before them. They made a recommendation about whether you should be retained. Those were replaced in newspapers and other things, but there was very little actual campaigning. And every appellate judge on on the ballot got about 74 to 76% of the positive vote in 2014.

00;26;50;26 - 00;27;15;18
Justice Clark
Because there was a group that brought in money, raised over $1 million of money, mostly from outside Tennessee, and just ran on a campaign of we'd like to get rid of these three people. It was much harder. We had to literally run a state campaign wide campaign. We had to raise over $1 million. We went everywhere, and all of us were sitting members of the court and a majority of of the court.

00;27;15;18 - 00;27;39;02
Justice Clark
So we couldn't quit working. We had to still work and put out our cases and sit and hear them. And there were there was a lot of ugliness, a lot of the kind of negative campaigning that we're seeing more and more of some of the outside groups had already been successful in, in defeating three out of three Iowa Supreme Court justices that were on the ballot on a single day.

00;27;39;04 - 00;28;07;13
Justice Clark
It was terrifying. It was nerve wracking. It was stressful. It was very difficult to have others having to ask for that much money and to still say to people, I swear I will uphold my oath. But I can't tell you precisely how a vote on any hypothetical question that you want to raise to me, the issues that are of importance to you, agree, are important, but I have to wait and judge those cases when they come through.

00;28;07;15 - 00;28;48;12
Justice Clark
It's a it's hard for any judge to actually run a campaign and address the individual interests of those who are interested voters. So there were a lot of surrogates. The bar across Tennessee stood up and, and in a bipartisan way as well, and said, we need to look to the interests of the institution and gratefully, they said, we think these folks have done well, read their cases, don't worry about what their political things are because they, like every other judge, put politics at the door when they walk out into a courtroom, without the support of all those many people, the trial judges, others did everything that they ethically could do.

00;28;48;14 - 00;28;54;23
Host
So for all of you, how was mentoring, important in your success and your ability to become a judge?

00;28;54;28 - 00;29;16;01
Justice Clark
It was it ultimately was critically important, and I'm not sure I realized when I was first receiving it, most of my mentors were male, because when I entered the practice of law, there were not very many women. When I literally entered the practice of law, Cissy Daughtry was the only woman serving on a state court of record.

00;29;16;03 - 00;29;37;10
Justice Clark
I did get to know her early, and she just like to mentor women lawyers, really without thought to whether they were becoming judges. There were several others appointed before I finally became a judge. But, I loved it that both men and women would take the time to sit down and answer my questions and talk to me about things.

00;29;37;17 - 00;29;58;17
Justice Clark
And if I were worried about, we there were clients in the large Nashville law firm I practice in who, when they were first introduced to me, said, we don't want a girl. We don't want a young girl being our attorney, you know, sitting second seat with you and, my law partners were supportive and said, we've chosen her because we think she's the best to help with this case.

00;29;58;17 - 00;30;22;07
Justice Clark
And and it's up to if you trust our firm, you have to trust us as to who to assign to it. Those things were very helpful. And it's what made me. And, once I became a lawyer and then a judge, that it's important to reach back and to do that for the folks following along. And it doesn't matter how many women we have in the profession, I think that will always be helpful.

00;30;22;07 - 00;30;39;21
Justice Clark
Women can be nurturing. They can be supportive anytime. You can give people advice about cutting through the, silliness of of some of what goes on and getting to the meat of what you need to do, then I think we're empowering people to become better lawyers.

00;30;39;24 - 00;30;48;17
Host
What skills do you use daily as a judge in? How is that different than what you thought being a judge would be when you were a practicing attorney? Judge Dalton

00;30;48;20 - 00;31;14;03
Judge Dalton
Something that I put into practice every day is to listen very patiently and carefully. And I really don't think that that was much different than what was required of me before. I probably put it in practice a lot more than I did when, than when I was a prosecutor. But I think that that is the skill that has helped me to become a better judge.

00;31;14;05 - 00;31;20;11
Host
Chancellor Bryant, what skills do you use every day that might not be necessarily assumed?

00;31;20;14 - 00;31;49;25
Chancellor Bryant
I think time management is more important than you. I would have thought going in when I started as a judge or when I was looking to run for judge, I assumed that the job would entail me being on the bench and making decisions, but it's so much broader than that. I read proposed legislation, I read statutes, I read opinions that come out.

00;31;49;28 - 00;32;18;07
Chancellor Bryant
I try, I try to be a good advocate for, for good law and, and speak to public groups. I try to teach lawyers, I think that I teach more than I thought that I would. And, just managing a docket, keeping cases, moving, keeping because I think the public thinks sometimes the legal process is slow.

00;32;18;09 - 00;32;35;01
Chancellor Bryant
So to be able to address that in a very open way with docket management and keeping cases moving, is something that I didn't necessarily think of at the first of the job, but it's a much larger part of the time management.

00;32;35;04 - 00;32;37;01
Host
Judge McGee, what skills do you use every day?

00;32;37;01 - 00;33;01;22
Judge McGee
Well, I would agree with both what Judge Dalton and Chancellor Braun have said. You have to have an enormous amount of patience, on the trial bench, especially because there is, I believe, something very important to people about failing, that they have been heard. And sometimes people just need to tell their story, you know, to to present their case.

00;33;01;22 - 00;33;29;03
Judge McGee
And I think they can that litigants overall, no one's ever completely happy with what happens in court. But, I think overall they are more willing to accept the result if they feel that they have been heard and that their position has been considered. So I think patience is very important. The time management is is extremely important because you have so many different demands, on you constantly and so many moving parts.

00;33;29;06 - 00;33;51;05
Judge McGee
As far as you've got to watch your docket, you've got to move through your motion day, you know, you've got so many different things going on and just constant analytical skills. I mean, it's like you are constantly trying to analyze every aspect of everything. You catch every detail. And, I think that's probably the main ones.

00;33;51;08 - 00;33;53;14
Host
Justice Clark, what skills do you use every day?

00;33;53;14 - 00;34;24;07
Justice Clark
Patience is number one. And, but more than that, you have to absolutely steel yourself to remain neutral no matter what in the seat I sit in now, we see people come through on a repeat basis. Not so much. Parties in the law suits, although there are some people who may litigate there. Child custody for as long as that child is under 18.

00;34;24;10 - 00;34;50;19
Justice Clark
But we, do reviews of all lawyer sanctions from the BPR. And there are people who come back again and again and and there are people both in regular cases and, and in disciplinary cases that just won't let a case end. And so they get an opinion and they follow a motion to rehear and then they follow. Second, I seem to be here and then they file a petition for stay.

00;34;50;19 - 00;35;09;29
Justice Clark
They're going to try to take their case to the US Supreme Court. And every one of those has to be treated appropriately. Now, sometimes it's very easy to see that what they raise this time is the same thing. They race on the last three. So you don't have to do additional research to know you will deny it.

00;35;10;02 - 00;35;38;03
Justice Clark
But you can take nothing for granted and you can't ever turn and say that, you know, they're just, they can't come here anymore. They're not going to file anything else. You're required always to look at those process filings from prisoners, criminal court judges in particular. Get those, but other judges get them as well. And, somewhere sometimes buried deep in them is a kernel of truth, and particularly about the process.

00;35;38;03 - 00;36;12;20
Justice Clark
If somebody writes us and says, I've been trying to get a copy of a document from the from a certain clerk's office, and they won't give it to me, and I've sent them the money. I've done all that. It's it's necessary for us to make sure that they get what they are entitled to. That may not mean that when they file their process post-conviction, they're going to win, but there's a requirement that it be filed with certain documents attached. And so no matter what, we have to be sure that people's rights are being enforced.

00;36;12;23 - 00;36;22;22
Host
And so everyone mentioned that one of the biggest hesitations to deciding to run for judge was life work balance. And family work balance. So how how do you do it, Judge Dalton? How do you do it?

00;36;22;27 - 00;36;29;07
Judge Dalton
I have learned that the word no is a complete sentence.

00;36;29;09 - 00;36;53;11
Judge Dalton
I have I. And I say that kind of tongue in cheek, but, I, I definitely make sure that I'm there for my family, for my son. He's a teenager now, so he didn't really want parents around all the time. But, you know, when he, you know, at his baseball games, he I think he does like seeing my husband and I sitting in the stands.

00;36;53;11 - 00;37;16;13
Judge Dalton
And on the weekends, if we can do family things together. I'm very, something that Chancellor Brandt mentioned was the importance of time management, and that's something that I struggled with in the beginning, because I felt that I had to devote all of this time to, you know, even in general sessions, you know, because at the end of the day, general sessions, you were done.

00;37;16;13 - 00;37;40;01
Judge Dalton
But I still felt that I had to devote all this time to making sure that I was up on, on case law, any of the new legislation that would impact how we handled cases in general sessions. And now that I'm on the on a trial bench, you know, devoting a lot of time to making sure that those, that my orders that I'm drafting are complete, because they're going to be reviewed, you know, by someone possibly.

00;37;40;03 - 00;37;53;20
Judge Dalton
I spent a lot of time doing that. And I've struggled with time management, but I've come to understand that that is important to making sure that I'm not neglecting my responsibilities as a mother and as a wife.

00;37;53;28 - 00;37;55;06
Host
Chancellor Bryant, how do you do it?

00;37;55;06 - 00;38;17;00
Chancellor Bryant
Well, I think the first step is to realize you can't do it alone. You have to have people around you who can help with court goes over. You have to realize that it may be 9:00 at night on Saturday night, and you still can't find the answer to the question you're researching, and you just got to pull the plug.

00;38;17;03 - 00;38;44;25
Chancellor Bryant
You, I couldn't have done it without my mom. You know, she was the. She was the go to person. I can't get them today. Can you run and get my children from school kind of thing? And she was always, good about that. And so just realizing whether you're campaigning, whether you're deciding to run for office, whether you're there in the job, whether you've got kids at home, you cannot do it alone.

00;38;44;25 - 00;39;03;14
Chancellor Bryant
And to and to be willing to reach out and say, hey, can you help me with this? And I think sometimes we as women don't want to say, hey, I need some help. We think that we've got to do everything ourselves. And and that's, that's not a healthy way of thinking. And it's a lot of you all know I'm trying to be more healthy.

00;39;03;14 - 00;39;14;10
Chancellor Bryant
Everybody tries to be more healthy and think so. And I think saying, hey, can you help with this? Whether it's a spouse, a parent, a friend, whatever is a good thing.

00;39;14;12 - 00;39;15;18
Host
Judge McGee, how do you do it?

00;39;15;18 - 00;39;39;08
Judge McGee
Well, it's a constant struggle, and I think I would be disingenuous if I sit here and and told the listeners that, had that all figured out because I don't I mean, it's a daily battle. You know, my kids, I think I mentioned earlier they were nine and 11 when I first ran for office, and they are now 15 and 17 and, they're very active in sports.

00;39;39;08 - 00;40;07;00
Judge McGee
They're very active in school, you know, so there's always somewhere that I feel that I need to be. And you can't be everywhere. And I think regardless of how much you attempt to do that, I think as moms, you're going to feel some mom guilt for every time that you can't be there. You know, even if even if you're there, say, 75% of the time when that 25% of the time comes around, you still feel some guilt over it, even if you're doing the very best that you can.

00;40;07;03 - 00;40;30;07
Judge McGee
And, I think, just as the other judges have said, support is is essential. You know, my husband has jumped in from the very beginning, and I'll be honest and say, you know, if it weren't for him, we wouldn't have clean laundry most days. So, he has always been really good to help. And my mom has been.

00;40;30;09 - 00;40;49;28
Judge McGee
You know, a person that I can count on, and then a couple of friends, you know, who have kids my kids age. You need those people that you can call when you're in a bind and say, can you can you help me? Can you go pick him up? Or can you do this or that? And you've got to be willing to reach out for help because just as chance, O'Brien said, you can't do it all yourself.

00;40;49;28 - 00;40;59;12
Judge McGee
And if you try to, it's not going to go, well, you know, you may hold out for a little while, but the crash and burn will come at some point.

00;40;59;12 - 00;41;26;05
Justice Clark
So I think you have to learn to say no better than I have. So, take away from Judge Dalton that no is a complete sentence, and I will work on that. But I also think it's important, to to do other things. Don't be afraid or feel guilty, to say if you can. I need to adjourn court at 4:00 this afternoon.

00;41;26;07 - 00;41;53;08
Justice Clark
Whether you say out loud or not, because my child is doing some performing or playing on a sports team or whatever. They're there's all day, every day and lots of time in between to do all that other work. And if you don't, if you don't feel like you're doing positive things, whether it's at your house of worship or other organizations, judges become isolated from the general public and even to an extent from other lawyers.

00;41;53;10 - 00;42;21;25
Justice Clark
So find some organization or some outlet that's important. And then do that. Family has to be priority and nobody gets anywhere without help, whoever that is that you can call on. But then make some time for yourself. Chancellor Brian is so right to encourage all of us, to do wellness things. Because if we're not healthy, then we're not going to be happy and we're not going to be productive as judges.

00;42;22;01 - 00;42;32;27
Host
So what is your best advice to our listeners out there who are either young women lawyers or law students who are thinking maybe someday, maybe someday I will run for the bench?

00;42;32;29 - 00;42;58;29
Justice Clark
I recommend it highly. I celebrated 30 years in the judiciary this year. Many changes have occurred during that period of time, but now almost every law school class is graduating 50% women. And many of them are going to have spouses and and partners who are going to be more supportive of sharing other duties. It's it's an interesting job.

00;42;58;29 - 00;43;28;23
Justice Clark
It's intellectually challenging. Women, I think, have lots of skills, particularly in the patience and management area that they can bring to this. Many women are becoming more, politically active or civically active. And some of the overt impediments that we have a long time ago are not there anymore. So try to see yourself in this role, talk to their they're now 25% women.

00;43;28;23 - 00;43;39;18
Justice Clark
You can go talk to somebody I don't know any woman judge who wouldn't be willing to talk to any law student about the pros and the cons. But I think it's a great opportunity for women.

00;43;39;21 - 00;44;03;12
Judge Dalton
And I would also to add to that, I would encourage women to become active in some of the organizations that help to foster and prepare women to, to, to run for, judge or seek that appointment or any other, direction that, that they may want to go. I mean, because I think that those organizations are, are designed to help and support women in those endeavors.

00;44;03;17 - 00;44;29;24
Chancellor Bryant
Just reach out to a judge and say, hey, I'm thinking about, let's get the real scoop. And I think that a good, frank discussion with somebody who's in the job that you want to do someday is a is an excellent place to start. Talk about how we got here and and then follow up on that. That's that's really important.

00;44;29;27 - 00;44;56;10
Judge McGee
From a practical standpoint. I would say to any young lawyer whether it may even be male or female, that thought that they wanted to be a judge. I think you need to work the cases and you need to spend time just working cases, not necessarily with the thought every day of, oh, I want to be a judge one day, but you need experience in a wide variety of areas.

00;44;56;17 - 00;45;42;13
Judge McGee
You need the experience that that comes from having done that type of case or having gone through knowing what discovery issues are like or knowing what what the pitfalls are of particular types of litigation. And and I think that that gives you the legal background that you need. And something else that occurred to me as we were all discussing this question, I would also tell young attorneys that think they might want to be judges one day to give some thought to, the way that they are portraying themselves to the public, and especially in this social media world that we live in, you know, that that's something that's that's kind of new, I guess new.

00;45;42;13 - 00;46;07;14
Judge McGee
Our, and maybe I'm just showing my age here, but that's something that, you know, that that wasn't something people used to really worry about. But, you know, look at look at the way you portray yourself to the public because, unfortunately or fortunately, those things are going to, stay around, so. And they'll be around whenever you decide you might want to run for office.

00;46;07;14 - 00;46;25;22
Host
And one last question here. So if you're not ready to run, you're still contemplating. You just decided it's not the best time for you. What can you do to help your help? Candidates who are running? Who are your friends? Your colleagues? Your. What was the most helpful to you that your colleagues and friends were able to do?

00;46;25;24 - 00;46;54;27
Justice Clark
Volunteer and give meaning? There's still signs that need to be put up. There's still social media that you can help with. Just having the person power to do all the things that need to be done. You almost can't get enough of that if you are the candidate running and it costs money to, to, run and win contested elections. So if you can help with that also, that's a great way to help friends.

00;46;54;29 - 00;47;20;26
Chancellor Bryant
It's an excellent step into the process that if you don't think you're quite ready yet, is to help somebody else who you do think is ready. We talk about a hand, to, to help people help us be pulled up to a place. But it's also sometimes we need a push and. And that's a good thing, too. Then you get an insider's view of what is it take. And that's that's nothing better than experience.

00;47;20;29 - 00;47;23;20
Host
Right. Thank you, everyone for being a guest on Tennessee Court Talk.

00;47;23;25 - 00;47;25;19
Judge McGee
Thank you, thank you, thank you.