Ep. 13 Juvenile Courts in Tennessee

On this episode, Judge Vicki Snyder of Henry County, Judge Dan Michael of Shelby County, Judge Tim Irwin of Knox County, and Judge Christy Little of Madison County discuss the mission of juvenile courts in Tennessee and the various dockets that they see every day. From rehabilitation, to reuniting families and keeping children safe, the judges also discuss privacy within juvenile court and advice to new lawyers entering a juvenile courtroom. 

Produced by Nick Morgan

Transcript

00;00;00;13 - 00;00;21;15
Voice Over
Tennessee Court Talk is a podcast presented by the Tennessee Supreme Court Administrative Office of the courts. The aim of the podcast is to improve the administration of justice in state courts through education and understanding. The target audience varies and is announced in the beginning of each episode. Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk.

00;00;21;18 - 00;00;43;05
Host
I'm your host, Barbara Peck. Today we are talking about juvenile courts in Tennessee, and this podcast is intended for all audiences. Our first guest is Judge Vickie Schneider. She's a juvenile court judge in Henry County. Our second guest is Judge Dan Michael. He's a juvenile court judge in Shelby County. Our third guest is Judge Tim Irwin, a juvenile court judge in Knox County.

00;00;43;09 - 00;00;49;08
Host
And our final guest is Judge Christy Little. She is a juvenile judge in Madison County. Welcome to you all.

00;00;49;10 - 00;00;50;05
Judge Snyder
Thank you. Thanks.

00;00;50;05 - 00;00;50;26
Judge Little
Thank you.

00;00;50;28 - 00;01;02;01
Host
So all 95 counties in Tennessee have a juvenile court is juvenile courts are part of our county court system. And so overall, Judge Michael, what is the mission of juvenile courts in Tennessee?

00;01;02;05 - 00;01;27;11
Judge Michael 
It's according to what part of the juvenile court you're talking about. Of course, in juvenile justice, it's rehabilitation. In cases of dependency and neglect, it's what's in the best interest of the child trying to help families reunite, get families back together or get children in a permanent placement. So it varies from docket to docket on what our actual goals are. I don't know, a thing by disagrees with that, but I think I.

00;01;27;15 - 00;01;52;00
Judge Little
Think a common misconception is people think that we are here to do the same thing as what happens to, children in adult court. We are bound by the statute that says we rehabilitate children. If the only way they would be punished is if they're transferred from our courts. So people get frustrated sometimes with the juvenile court system because they feel like we're not doing enough.

00;01;52;02 - 00;02;12;10
Judge Little
But we rehabilitate and the adult system punishes, and that's very important. And in Madison County, I think the biggest thing that I worry about is that we keep our families and children safe, but we also keep our community safe. And that balancing act is very, very difficult sometimes, especially in those sensitive cases.

00;02;12;11 - 00;02;22;21
Host
So let's talk a little bit about delinquency. And so what kind of rehabilitation efforts do you have available to you and Judge Snyder?

00;02;22;23 - 00;02;50;20
Judge Snyder
Well, I'm in a rural county, so, my resources are limited compared to suburban and, urban areas. I have a I'm lucky I have career counseling center, which is, available to us through, through the Juvenile Justice Reform Act. There's a grant that makes, career counseling available to us. They're in court with us every time we have court, whether it's child, welfare court or juvenile justice court.

00;02;50;22 - 00;03;17;00
Judge Snyder
And they are available to meet the needs of the children that need rehabilitation. Also, the Department of Children Services is available to us to meet those needs as well. I do not have grants. I don't I don't, really use grants for juvenile justice cases because I am a rural county. It's difficult to hire people, under that grant in that in that area.

00;03;17;03 - 00;03;39;26
Judge Snyder
And someone to move to Henry County or take a job under a grant program for juvenile justice. And then that grant, dissipate or go away, that person perhaps is moved to Henry County, bought a house there, and if the grant, ends for whatever purpose, you know, let's say it's a through a federal grant. That grant, is no longer available through the state.

00;03;39;29 - 00;04;04;04
Judge Snyder
That person then is in Henry County, where there aren't a lot of jobs, and then that person is there with a house and perhaps no job. So I use a lot of, creative, programs that we use in Henry County that are, at no cost, such as, what's called an options program, where kids, actually send out of detention.

00;04;04;11 - 00;04;20;23
Judge Snyder
Detention. We can program that, my part time staff, oversees and supervises. So rehabilitation, community service, treatment for and issues and those kinds of things. I have to be creative because I'm rural and don't have a lot of resources.

00;04;21;00 - 00;04;27;29
Host
So, Judge Aaron, tell me a little bit about what options you have for defendants who are delinquent or unruly.

00;04;28;01 - 00;04;54;05
Judge Irwin
Well, first of all, let me say that's way less than 10% of what I do are the delinquent and unruly children. But we have a plethora of, options. We have a program called Home Base, a very intensive form of probation run by the Helen Ross McNab folks, we have a show cap designation, which, makes an officer come by your house at night.

00;04;54;05 - 00;05;24;20
Judge Irwin
Check. See if you're in for your curfew. Those two things help us keep from placing kids in juvenile justice commitments. We've also got a fully, licensed PhD clinical social worker on staff that can meet with our children in detention, as she has six master's level students, so we can address mental health needs, quickly for kids that have to wait in detention to have their cases heard because of safety concerns.

00;05;24;22 - 00;05;51;04
Judge Irwin
And, we also have a big presence with the department. I have about I think I have 46 employees there and a county of 400,000. So we have adequate resources. What we don't have sometimes is placement beds as quickly as we'd like them. If we do have to commit a child, I have 707 children in DCFs custody in.

00;05;51;04 - 00;06;11;03
Judge Irwin
Only 26 of those children are in juvenile justice custody. So 680 on the dependency neglect side and 26 on the juvenile justice side. So it's not a big part of what I do, but we have adequate resources right now to handle and help keep the kids from going down the custody road when possible, when safety allows.

00;06;11;05 - 00;06;29;03
Host
So let's talk a little bit about that, because I think that the misconception is that juvenile court really is handling juvenile justice issues, like kids are being sent to juvie. And I think that's what the public or a lot of people would think that you do. But as you you're all shaking your head, yes, to me, that that's really a small part of what you're actually doing.

00;06;29;03 - 00;06;32;05
Host
So tell us a little bit about your docket. A typical docket for you, Judge Michael.

00;06;32;05 - 00;06;57;14
Judge Michael 
Well, the, in Shelby County, we have a resurgence of violent juvenile crime. It's up about 65% over last year, which has caused my docket to crowd up with transfer hearings. My docket is solely set to hear transfer cases. RDA files about 250 notices a year, which causes me to give her a hearing on those cases.

00;06;57;16 - 00;07;26;11
Judge Michael 
So I spend my day managing those 250 filings, getting reports, getting psychological evaluations done, getting everything ready to go for a hearing. It's it's unusual. You know, Shelby County is the poorest urban county in the state. We have the highest number of single family households. We have the highest number of households, government assistance. So poverty, one of those correlating factors to crime is huge.

00;07;26;13 - 00;07;56;01
Judge Michael 
About 40% of our children in Shelby County live in poverty. And, when you have those types of infrastructure problems, lack of shopping centers and grocery stores in the inner city, and gangs, you have a crime problem. So my, my daily docket is looking at young adults coming in who are committing very serious offenses. We get about 6000 delinquency referrals a year in Shelby County.

00;07;56;03 - 00;08;09;29
Judge Michael 
That still not the majority of our business. The majority of our business in Shelby County is child support work. It's over half our docket. And then we'll get another 3 to 4000 abused and neglected children coming through our courts every year.

00;08;10;01 - 00;08;15;22
Host
So tell us a little bit about the differences between unruly and delinquent.

00;08;15;26 - 00;08;37;29
Judge Michael 
Well, an unruly child or a status offender is, an act that can only be committed by a child. The, the 5 or 6 of us could run away today, and nobody's going to arrest us or smoke cigaret or drink alcohol or disobey our parents. Children aren't allowed to do that. And that's an unruly act or a status offender.

00;08;38;01 - 00;09;04;09
Judge Michael 
A delinquent act is an act which would be a crime if you were an adult. And that language is used purposefully. We don't want to label children criminals. If you read the statute, it still has that old language in it. We want to remove the taint of criminality, from the child so that they can grow up and be productive citizens without that delinquent act chasing them through adulthood.

00;09;04;12 - 00;09;15;05
Host
And so I'm going to stay with you for a minute here. So what, tell us a little bit about how you decide and what factors you look at when you're deciding whether to remove a child from juvenile court to adult court.

00;09;15;07 - 00;09;42;05
Judge Michael 
It's, it's pretty straightforward. There are three primary, laws that you have to look at in the transfer statute. One probable causes, child committed the act. They're charged with. So I have to find it's reasonable to believe that the child committed the act. The second one is what I call commit ability. Is that child committed to an institution for the developmentally disabled or mentally ill?

00;09;42;07 - 00;10;08;23
Judge Michael 
And if they are, it stops the proceedings. If they fail to prove probable cause, the proceeding stop. Last but not least, what the TCA says Tennessee Code Annotated, community requires legal restraint and discipline. This is where the legislature hands off that, crystal ball. I guess you could say to the judge, we have to look at that child's history, how they responded in the past to treatment efforts.

00;10;08;23 - 00;10;36;04
Judge Michael 
If they've been in court, what have we done to try to help them? How many systems have they been through? And you consider all those factors in making a decision on whether you believe the child can be rehabilitated? If you get to the point where a child has been in the system a long time, has graduated through all of our local service providers, into the Department of Children's Services and is still committing violent acts.

00;10;36;04 - 00;10;47;24
Judge Michael 
Then you get to a point where you say, I'm sorry, but I don't have anything for you. You have to go to the adult system. It's a very, very difficult decision to make because you're essentially giving up on that child's potential.

00;10;47;24 - 00;11;10;10
Judge Little
And Tim, I would say the two most difficult cases as a juvenile judge that that, that we have to determine and I think all of us will agree, that I lose sleep over at night even though all the factors are met and you feel that transfer is the, only option, the two most are transferring a child to adult court.

00;11;10;10 - 00;11;32;27
Judge Little
Those are the days you wake up and in dread and fear. And the second is terminating, parents rights to be a parent. And it's almost an awesome response. I mean, that we even have the ability to say you are no longer a parent to a child in a in a case, it's very, very difficult, to do that.

00;11;32;27 - 00;11;56;09
Judge Little
Judge Irwin was very, very successful in getting some new surrender forms that have made it so much easier for a parent who who feels they can't adequately, for, for many reasons, parent a child. And if a parent comes in and decides to surrender on a day one, I would have to make that determination whether or not to terminate.

00;11;56;12 - 00;12;26;01
Judge Little
It's a win for everyone. And now, with the new legislation that allows parents to contract with the adoptive families, it also is a is another piece to that puzzle that makes me feel, at night. That, job well done, for my staff, and that everybody's done their job. But those are the two things that, as a judge, I think all of us would agree are the most difficult transfers and terminations.

00;12;26;07 - 00;13;01;23
Judge Snyder
I agree with that, because some sometimes when a parent, surrenders, a their rights and we go through the process which were dictated to go through, you know, I will say to the, to the parent, because it's generally a parent I've dealt with in, in the dependency and neglect court at usually on in an earlier case when I'm satisfied that, that parent is doing so under no duress or coercion, this is something they wish to do because they want their child to have a better life.

00;13;01;23 - 00;13;38;18
Judge Snyder
And when we are finished and the crying has ceased, you know, I will say to that parent, this is the greatest act of love you will ever demonstrate for this child. And then the conversation is, I recognize that, and I want my child to have the life that I never had, because usually that parent is a product of the environment that their child has been living in, which is usually, you know, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, homelessness, and they want better for their child.

00;13;38;20 - 00;13;55;07
Judge Snyder
And so the fact that Judge Irwin championed the cause of having a surrender form that was less cumbersome, and we have that now, makes that process so much less difficult and less, painful that for that parent, that wants to surrender.

00;13;55;07 - 00;14;29;24
Judge Little
And as an adoptive parent and I'm an adoptive parent, you know, I can I can honestly say to them, what you're doing is, is the most and, it's the most difficult decision if they don't cry and they're not upset. It's heartbreaking to me because it is such a wonderful gift for a family to be able to have a child they can love, but it's also the most unselfish thing you can do to say, I just know that I, in my heart of hearts that this is the best thing.

00;14;29;29 - 00;14;48;28
Judge Little
And it's not just the women, it's also the fathers as well who come in and say, you know, just simply cannot do this. And, and, and, you know, those are the days when you go home and you kind of have a little sip in your step once you finally get past like the tears is, is is just understood.

00;14;49;04 - 00;15;02;08
Judge Little
Once you get past that, to know that, you want to know the outcome of that and the Christmas cards that you get that. That's why it's easier to get up some days and do the jobs that we do.

00;15;02;11 - 00;15;06;00
Host
So, Judge Irwin, this form you helped create.

00;15;06;00 - 00;15;07;04
Judge Little
The Magic Forum.

00;15;07;04 - 00;15;10;18
Host
The Magic Forum. Tell us a little bit about what you were seeing and what was the motivation there.

00;15;10;25 - 00;15;33;27
Judge Irwin
Well, I, was dealing with a case that was the surrender was actually taken down in, Panama City. And I got the surrender and it was one page in our surrender at the time was about, I don't know, 60 pages maybe. And, so we took a look at what we could do to shorten it.

00;15;33;27 - 00;15;54;29
Judge Irwin
And we tried all kinds of different ways to shorten it through committee with the Department of Children's Services. Finally, it just took a simple statute change. Put the new form in there. And now this legislature, they're changing it to make it even shorter. But I think that's a good thing. People understand that they're giving up their rights.

00;15;54;29 - 00;16;22;14
Judge Irwin
That's the main point. And they understand that it's forever. And they understand they got three days to change your mind and that's a really good thing. A lot of times when I go to work every day and I come home at night, I've made a child's life better by my direct actions. And that's what keeps you going, when you have days where you have to, you know, where you have to bond a child over to the grand jury to be tried as an adult.

00;16;22;14 - 00;17;05;01
Judge Irwin
Those are hard. And, you know, I feel for Dan having to do so many of them. I think the more vigilant you are on the dependency neglect side, the less cases you'll have to have on the transfer side. If you raise a child correctly, if he has some one in his life or she has someone in her life that loves him, if they're not, had a bunch of trauma and adverse, childhood experiences, and they grow up with someone caring about them and going to school, they're not likely to end up in front of us with the state asking for a transfer. If they're raised like an animal, then they'll respond like an animal.

00;17;05;04 - 00;17;08;01
Judge Little
You tell a child they're bad. They'll prove you right every time.

00;17;08;02 - 00;17;09;01
Judge Michael 
Absolutely.

00;17;09;01 - 00;17;11;10
Judge Little
And they learn by example. You know, if.

00;17;11;10 - 00;17;35;21
Judge Irwin
If you're vigilant and you have the ability to take children out of bad home situations early in their life, they turn around. There was this huge, huge scare when the opiate crisis hit about how are these children that are born drug exposed? What kind of effect is it going to have on them when they're older children and teenagers?

00;17;35;21 - 00;17;59;04
Judge Irwin
And so far, honestly, I have to say that affect’s been much less than we thought it was going to be. I see kids going to foster homes very quickly, and they're they're becoming part of those homes that live in good lives. And I haven't seen too many emotionally disturbed children because of what happened to them in the womb. And I'm so thankful for that. We were really scared.

00;17;59;04 - 00;17;59;14
Judge Michael 
Yep.

00;17;59;20 - 00;18;04;12
Judge Irwin
When opiate crisis hit, what was going to happen? And I see one once in a while, but not not very often.

00;18;04;12 - 00;18;10;00
Judge Little
Don't you think that the safe baby court concept has also made that better?

00;18;10;04 - 00;18;10;24
Judge Irwin
I think.

00;18;10;28 - 00;18;11;27
Judge Snyder
Absolutely.

00;18;11;29 - 00;18;31;00
Judge Irwin
It's been a phenomenal effort to keep children with their mothers. The hardest thing we have to do is tear a child away from its parents. It's very difficult whether you're terminating, whether you're taking them away the first time you take away a baby from a mom that's just had that child, that's that's rough on you, it's rough on you.

00;18;31;00 - 00;18;38;01
Judge Irwin
It's rough on them. It's hard on the child. To sever that bond between a newborn and its mother is.

00;18;38;03 - 00;19;06;00
Judge Little
If they don't bond initially, it's very, very difficult. And we have a program in, Madison County, actually in Gibson. It's in Gibson County in Humboldt, run by Aspen called a mother's love, where we take the women when they are in when they're pregnant and have opioid issues and try to get them off those drugs. And then after the baby's born, they stay with their child in that facility for six months, minimum, most of the time longer.

00;19;06;02 - 00;19;38;26
Judge Little
And we have found great success in that program. Pathways and, all these other agencies come in and work closely with the parents with as well. And, and it has just been amazing, I think. Tim. Judge Irwin, you've had some mothers with us and, and, Judge Snyder as well. We just said, honey, Memphis has Baby Love and some other programs, but keeping those children and mothers together when they're first born is a bond that if you don't get on the front end, you don't get on, you it's hard.

00;19;38;26 - 00;20;06;10
Judge Little
It's a attachment disorder issue. And, so I think that was something we were concerned about is what are we going to do to keep that together with that and safe baby core that, Senator Hale was able to legislate. And I think everybody, in here, with the exception of Shelby, has to say baby court now, but the goal is to have every county in the state to have that program that we could talk the whole time.

00;20;06;12 - 00;20;35;19
Judge Little
As far as Barbara, about that program. But, we continue to, proceed with, the concept that, prevention before detention, getting the children when they're young keeps them out of the court system when they're older, because the the statistics tell us that that overwhelmingly and you all might know the exact number, I would say 90 plus percent of the children that are delinquent were dependent, neglected.

00;20;35;19 - 00;20;57;08
Judge Little
And now whether they were that was identified or not and remains to be seen, but our goal is to keep them from getting to that that, juvenile justice track and keep them, safe and, happy and healthy before they start committing offenses that, that, changed their lives forever.

00;20;57;10 - 00;21;20;07
Judge Michael 
One of the things that's coming down the pike, that I think is going to really help us with these, cases, these, welfare cases is family First Prevention Act was passed by Congress allowing the states to draw down, what we call 40 money from title 40 of Social Security Act and use it in different ways.

00;21;20;09 - 00;21;46;15
Judge Michael 
And as a judge, when I'm told that mother goes to the mad and has a baby that has cocaine in the bloodstream, well, today the department's going to go in and remove that child. After Families First comes on board, they will be able to place that mother in a residential provider facility with the child and help her get past her addiction.

00;21;46;18 - 00;22;08;23
Judge Michael 
And what I like about the act and the training I've gotten on the act so far is that it acknowledges that mother will probably fail at some point in time during that treatment. Almost all addicts do, but that's not going to be held against them. And the really exciting thing is it's 15 months of treatment. That's a long time.

00;22;08;23 - 00;22;29;10
Judge Michael 
Not 30 days, not 90 days, 15 months. With that, I think what we're going to see are fewer and fewer families coming before us where we have to remove the children if it works the way it's supposed to. Now, Tennessee took a waiver, so I think it's 2022 before they launch it, but they are doing training around the state on Families First.

00;22;29;10 - 00;22;34;08
Judge Michael 
So I'm looking forward to the application of that system in Tennessee.

00;22;34;10 - 00;22;41;25
Host
So tell me a little bit about.. Judge Snyder, Tell me a little bit about the dependency neglect cases that you see in, Henry County.

00;22;41;28 - 00;23;35;24
Judge Snyder
Almost, almost exclusively. They are the genesis of the the DNA cases are parent drug, abuse or drug dependency. Very often, there are multiple children involved with the department removing usually when law enforcement officers, go into a home on a search warrant or, after investigating something and then law enforcement calling the department and the department, then going into the home and removing, more a child or more children, involves generally more than one father, which involves the appointment of a guardian ad litem, attorneys for and most all parents are indigent, which involves the appointment of counsel for mother or the guardian ad litem.

00;23;35;26 - 00;24;00;19
Judge Snyder
Father or fathers, first and foremost, addressing the specific needs of the child or the children, whether they, need to be tested for drug exposure, their specific medical needs. If they're older children, they generally have not had dental care. They haven't seen a physician, a pediatrician in some time. They may have, they may have abuse issues.

00;24;00;21 - 00;24;22;16
Judge Snyder
They need to see a pediatrician immediately and making sure they're safe. They're in a safe environment, generally with a kinship placement. If there is one available where they'll be safe because children need to be with someone that's not a stranger to them. It's so scary to to just imagine, these children are in the home. They may not see it as a dangerous situation.

00;24;22;16 - 00;24;37;12
Judge Snyder
They love their parents even though it is. We see it as a bad situation. Quote. But the police come in. It's scary. They're removed by people that are strangers to them. Then they're placed in a strange home. It is frightening. It's traumatic.

00;24;37;14 - 00;24;48;17
Judge Irwin
Every child, if they're old enough to talk, will tell you during the process that they just want to go home, no matter how bad home. Try not sure what's happened to them that they'll all tell you they want to go home.

00;24;48;20 - 00;24;51;26
Judge Little
I don't think I've ever had a child not want to go home.

00;24;52;02 - 00;25;17;03
Judge Snyder
So if there's kinship placement, an aunt and uncle, a grandparent where they can be safe, that is where we like to see them go. And then just providing the services with return to parent if it's appropriate. If the department, Department of Children's Services develops that plan, everyone's on board. If they can go home and it's a safe environment, reunification, if not kinship placement down the road.

00;25;17;03 - 00;25;39;17
Judge Snyder
If termination is appropriate for children, you know, there you have to follow that plan. It's it's not cookie cutter. As I said, different for every case, different for every child. And we have to be in tune with that as judges have to be attentive, have to hold the feet, the feet of the department, to the fire, the attorneys and ourselves.

00;25;39;17 - 00;25;47;01
Judge Snyder
We are accountable as well as judges. There's a lot of work that goes into every case by all parties involved.

00;25;47;01 - 00;26;12;08
Judge Little
And if I can just say the other piece of that puzzle is that a lot of the placements are non-custodial and we're, fortunate in, in Madison County to have Casa. We do too. And, and and that's another piece of that puzzle because they if there's a relative in, Nevada, then we have, we can contact Carson, Nevada and get them to do a at home study.

00;26;12;08 - 00;26;50;05
Judge Little
That would be a whole lot. We can expedite what Department Children's Services would have to do. And, we're able to place children. So Casa has been a wonderful benefit, that we've had for four years, that allows us to be able to also get into the home, see what and, you know, to be the voice of the child, which, as we've said, is to return home, but we want them to to make certain I think my two greatest fears are that I return a child too soon when a parent's not ready, and then that's even more devastating to have to remove, or that I don't return them soon enough.

00;26;50;08 - 00;27;23;12
Judge Little
And it is, it's difficult then for that bonding to occur or things are already, so difficult or different at that point in time. So Casa is also another piece of that, dependency and neglect issue when you have to remove children. And in Madison County, we're seeing, many, more parents with the mental or maybe they're just becoming, we're becoming more aware of the mental health issues and, and, and times out of ten, a parent who has a drug issue had a mental health issue, and they self-medicate.

00;27;23;12 - 00;27;52;06
Judge Little
And we work closely with our mental health provider pathways. We have Quinn Co and some and other providers that are there, but mental health has been coming to the forefront lately. With, more people not getting the services they need and not being able to parent because of that. And it's a fix because certainly there's medication and there are things we can do, but that's also another piece of that dependency puzzle that we see besides the drug issues.

00;27;52;06 - 00;28;11;18
Judge Little
As Judge Snyder said, that's probably is the number one reason why most children are taking every you know, we have physical abuse that does occur. But, for the most part, it is it leans toward the the use of drugs or the lack of mental health treatment.

00;28;11;20 - 00;28;25;01
Host
So, Judge Irwin, when you're making the decision, when there's a family in front of you and you've sort of made the decision to that the child can't stay in the home. What factors are you looking for when you're trying to decide where to place them?

00;28;25;04 - 00;28;48;21
Judge Irwin
Number one, safety. None of us want a dead baby or a dead child. It's a safety. It's not safe for the child to stay in the home of an active meth addict oftentimes. And I say meth because that's 90% of what I say is meth. Cocaine. I don't see many pills anymore. Right. And I had a tremendous pill use in population.

00;28;48;21 - 00;29;15;04
Judge Irwin
But the medical folks have done a good job of cleaning up their practices. I don't see it. My people can't get pills anymore. They use meth and they use cocaine. And it's been my determination and that of my magistrates that they're not safe options while they're active users. So safety is the first determination. And, we do look at what the child wants when they get to be a certain age.

00;29;15;04 - 00;29;37;09
Judge Irwin
When they're 12, they can testify. And, and we listen to the children and try to put them at ease. I'm a big, scary guy, so I. The first thing I do in my court is hand children a teddy bear and let them hold it and squeeze it. Not all teddy bears, stuffed animals, you know, everything from Barney to unicorns to.

00;29;37;12 - 00;29;55;13
Judge Irwin
But, it seems to work really well. Putting the kids at ease. But the first thing that, I look at is going to be safety. And that's always going to be the case. The second thing I'm going to look at is the best interest of this child, and where I can get this child, where they'll grow and flourish and, and have a successful life.

00;29;55;16 - 00;30;28;01
Judge Irwin
And that can be a whole lot. The considerations can be a whole lot different. With a six day old and a 17 year old, and you have to look at a 17 year old, you have to look at things like, how can I possibly get this child with a high school diploma or in a vocation, or, get them in a place where they can can succeed and want to succeed here in a more of a rehabilitation stage there where with a baby, you're wanting to get them in a place where they can get all this care all the time growing up.

00;30;28;01 - 00;30;33;01
Judge Irwin
So you won't be that 17 year old with three high school credits and then a bunch of trouble.

00;30;33;03 - 00;30;44;02
Judge Little
We also have a back end. Is there a pitch? We have Navey, who is our new, security dog who comes to court every time we have any removals. And I know you have, habit.

00;30;44;02 - 00;30;46;09
Judge Irwin
Habit dogs is what we have. Yeah, they come into.

00;30;46;14 - 00;31;08;16
Judge Little
And and Navey has been, probably the greatest addition we've had in a long time. No offense to all my wonderful Amy Jones and my, director of juvenile Court services staff, but everybody wants to say, Navey, they don't want to see me, and they don't want to see, people. They want to just get down on the floor and and talk to Nami and deal with, you know, the dog listens.

00;31;08;16 - 00;31;26;24
Judge Little
It's kind of like my dog when I go home. Sometimes my animals are the only ones. They're glad to see me. So Navy brings that different element. Children relate to that. So that's something that all courts I think, in the, in the state should look into because it has been a really blessed, opportunity that we've had.

00;31;26;24 - 00;31;52;12
Judge Little
And to see how that affects children as well as, Judge Irwin said, especially those the children that are not the newborns. But any, any child that is available is it has the ability to, to, to run a dog or have a stuffed animal has, has feels like they have, something of their very own or something special that's not judging them in any way whatsoever.

00;31;52;13 - 00;32;19;22
Judge Snyder
About ten years ago, I sat on a panel at Freed Hardeman, which addressed the issue of aging out of foster care. You know, being 18 never been adopted. And there were six kids on the on the panel on the stage. And when they finished speaking, I asked them, you know, as a judge, tell me what I need to know about you.

00;32;19;24 - 00;32;51;19
Judge Snyder
Tell me. Tell me the main thing that I need to know about you and what I can do as a judge to help the kids that come before me. And they said nobody ever heard us. Nobody ever heard me. And so I left there and drove back from Henderson to Paris. And I was so overwhelmed with emotion. And I started immediately, especially kids that were old enough to understand.

00;32;51;22 - 00;33;15;10
Judge Snyder
And I said, I want you to understand that with the dependency and neglect kids, that you're in state custody, you're in foster care not because of anything that you did. You did nothing wrong. You're here because of parent behavior. And I want you to understand I'm always here to listen to you. You have a voice. You're the most important person in this room.

00;33;15;12 - 00;33;41;12
Judge Snyder
And I began to see a change in these children. When they would come to court, they stood taller, and they had a command of the courtroom. And we started using therapy dogs about eight years ago, and we had one. Tanner was a golden retriever. He died of cancer, and we were all devastated. And now we have two, and the children come in and they first and you can hear the tail of the dog hit the courtroom floor and it's like, bam, bam, bam.

00;33;41;15 - 00;33;58;05
Judge Snyder
And they come in and they immediately go to the dog. And we now have a ratification of the permanency plan. And the children will go over and pet the dog, and then they get a sucker and they leave the courtroom, because when we talk about then the the court report, I don't want the little ears to hear some things that we're talking about.

00;33;58;07 - 00;34;23;04
Judge Snyder
So to alleviate their fear of being in the scary courtroom, they're I'm up on a bench. They're down there. You know, sometimes I get off the bench and come around and kneel down and talk to them because they're they're so tiny sometimes. And I think about my five grandchildren, you know, when I'm talking to them, I kneel down and get it all level because they live in a world of big people and they're little people.

00;34;23;06 - 00;34;45;04
Judge Snyder
And then when my kids that come in are 16 and 17, as Judge Irwin talked about, and they are getting ready to be of the at the age of aging out. And I and you you think about these kids, these kids. It freed Hardman and that on that panel talked about you know, when I turned 18, my foster parents said, you still live here.

00;34;45;06 - 00;35;07;19
Judge Snyder
This will be your home forever. You can you no matter what you do, you come back here and this is your home. Some had their suitcase put on the front door step at the front door. Adios. So at Thanksgiving, they were at a McDonald's. And they. That was their Thanksgiving. Some lived in their car. I was heartbroken by that concept and that thought.

00;35;07;22 - 00;35;35;11
Judge Snyder
So when we have that, the the transition of that 17 year old learning about permanency and how you can know to how to get a credit card and, fill out an application for, an apartment or do those things that parents that we did for our children, they don't have anybody doing that for them. So we're not and we're not only dealing with the abused and neglected little ones.

00;35;35;15 - 00;35;50;16
Judge Snyder
We're dealing with those 17 year olds that are getting ready to turn 18 and don't belong to anyone. And everybody needs to be somebody, someone. These are children that need us.

00;35;50;17 - 00;36;12;28
Judge Michael 
Yeah. I'd like to stress a point I think Tim made earlier. I've never well, I've seen maybe a half a dozen kids over the years, but I rarely see a child on my transfer docket whose background is horrendous. I mean, I have read files on children who are 15, 16, 17 who have done something really, really bad.

00;36;13;00 - 00;36;37;22
Judge Michael 
And I've wondered to myself how that child survived that life. I rarely see a child turn 16 or 17, pick up a gun and go rob somebody. These are children who are abused, neglected to the point that the trauma in their life drives their life. You see, fighting at school, you see fighting at home. A good friend of mine says it this way.

00;36;37;22 - 00;36;58;19
Judge Michael 
You know, we have an amygdala which controls the fight or flight in our bodies. And if you're in the woods and a bear walks up on you, you're either going to fight or you're going to flee. Hopefully you're going to be faster than the bear. What do you do when the bears at home every day, all day with you?

00;36;58;21 - 00;37;32;10
Judge Michael 
And these children are coming up in situations. And that's what I see on my transfer docket now. It doesn't forgive their behavior, but it tells me why they're there. That's why this DNN or this abuse welfare side is so critical to what we do. If we can get those children safe in a home that's going to love them and give them the direction they need, I'll never see them. I mean, it's it's that that close to what I'm dealing with on my end. And people forget that.

00;37;32;12 - 00;37;45;09
Host
Interesting. I think someone made that point yesterday at, at one of the sessions, that there's such a fine line between the dependency and neglect cases. That's right. And the delinquent cases, sometimes they're just so mixed.

00;37;45;11 - 00;37;50;00
Judge Michael 
Oh, you can have a delinquent child that's also dependent and neglected. We run into that all the time.

00;37;50;06 - 00;37;51;29
Judge Snyder
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00;37;52;06 - 00;38;10;12
Host
So let's talk a little bit about you mentioned a little bit, Judge Snyder about who's in the courtroom in a juvenile proceeding. I think one of the misconceptions we have is the administrative office of the courts. We manage the indigent fund for when somebody can't afford an attorney, then you're appointed an attorney. If the public defender can't represent them.

00;38;10;12 - 00;38;33;12
Host
And it's about a $43 million fund, that the ministry boss of the courts administers. So I think there's a lot of misconception that that is all going to capital cases and these people who have done these horrendous crimes. But the reality is 43% of that money is going into juvenile court. And so tell us a little bit about who has it, who gets a lawyer in in juvenile court and what is the role of the guardian ad litem?

00;38;33;12 - 00;38;39;21
Host
Because that's something that's sort of fairly unique to juvenile court. It happens a little bit on other courts, but definitely in juvenile court.

00;38;39;21 - 00;39;09;10
Judge Little
In Madison County. Everybody gets a lawyer in in a dependency and neglect case, when the child gets a guardian in litem, the parents, mother or father, as long as they're indigent, which I'd say 98% of the families are indigent. Cause, we we don't go forward, obviously, in a termination of parental rights case, everybody will. But in in Madison County, our goal is for every every child, you get a sibling group.

00;39;09;10 - 00;39;31;09
Judge Little
And that's where I get, frustrated. Sometimes you get a sibling group of six children that maybe have different fathers, that you have older children who have different interests than babies. And sadly, we may have one guardian ad litem. And because, our goal, the goal for our Casa board, is for every child to have a concept representative.

00;39;31;09 - 00;39;49;02
Judge Little
And usually I will take, if it's a smaller group, I'll at least point A to, two guardian ad litem. And we're blessed to be able to do that in our county and have attorneys that are willing to do that. They don't get paid enough even though they are getting paid, not nearly what they should be for the time they spend.

00;39;49;02 - 00;40;24;20
Judge Little
But, the children have different, differing needs now. Also, if a child says, I want to go home and it's just absolutely impossible because there's still a math issue, we still have math in the home, then sometimes we have to put an attorney in light homes and in some cases. But, we always make certain that the children and the parents rights are protected because these cases, especially if it's a termination, are going up on appeal and and rightly so, we should, you know, that's a decision that that needs to be looked at.

00;40;24;20 - 00;40;51;24
Judge Little
We're all human. Certainly those things need to be be, tested and tested to make certain if in fact, there is a termination of parental rights. So everyone, should, in those cases have an attorney. And also in the delinquency cases, sometimes we may assess an amount less than what, you know, an amount for the parents to pay.

00;40;51;26 - 00;41;17;06
Judge Little
If the child, every child has to have an attorney, they have the same rights. So in a delinquency case, it's just as important because every time they commit an offense that could be used against them later in a transfer hearing to show their past, treatment efforts and their past delinquent history. So, lawyers play such an important role in our courts that we don't give them the credit they deserve.

00;41;17;09 - 00;41;40;14
Judge Little
And certainly the monetary amount we appreciate the the Aoki's efforts in making certain that, we do have attorneys readily available, and our public defender does not have the manpower to come to our court. So all of ours, all the all the attorneys that come to court are being paid through the EEOC unless their, the families are able to hire counsel.

00;41;40;17 - 00;42;02;01
Judge Snyder
I do appoint the public defender in, juvenile court. If, there's a, unlike a parents fill out affidavits in delinquency cases. And if the public defender, is if they qualify, appoint the public defender. Now, if there's a Brewton issue and there are co-defendants, then I appoint private counsel. We do have a day that the public defender comes.

00;42;02;03 - 00;42;35;06
Judge Snyder
There's always that misconception in private custody cases where, the petitioner always generally has an attorney, and then the respondent will come in and say, I want a attorney. Well, if there is dependency and neglect alleged in the petition and the respondent fills out an affidavit and they qualify, I will appoint counsel. But if there's no allegation of dependency and neglect and it's strictly just a custody issue, you know, parental fitness, I don't that there's no, ground for me.

00;42;35;06 - 00;43;02;28
Judge Snyder
There's there's absolutely no ground for me to appoint counsel. And I and I it is a difficult thing for me because I recognize very often because I live in a county of 33,000, which sounds big, but it's not. And sometimes I'll know just by just recognizing the person. Sometimes, having been in criminal court, the respondent is not able to hire a counsel, and I've explained to them I don't have the ability to appoint counsel for you.

00;43;02;28 - 00;43;14;09
Judge Little
And sadly, Vicki, what do you do? We're also told that the AOC can't pay for a guardian ad litem if it's not a DNN. So you also have that child out there without.

00;43;14;12 - 00;43;44;22
Judge Snyder
So, if, if the and the the bottom line is, I just can do what I can do. So, what, what I do have is I do have, mediation available, and I, I have a local rule that if it's a non dependency and neglect case, there's no dependency and neglect alleged. The first thing is I order mediation, and mediation is resolving almost all my custody cases.

00;43;44;24 - 00;43;57;24
Judge Snyder
Because when they sit down with a mediator, it generally resolves everything. Shar, maybe occasionally of an issue or two, which I can resolve in a short hearing. So that's resolving most all of the and work.

00;43;57;25 - 00;44;02;26
Judge Little
I get the payment for the mediators that comes up a lot in our court.

00;44;02;28 - 00;44;06;25
Judge Snyder
It's it's just being paid. I mean, they're resolving it and they're paying it.

00;44;06;25 - 00;44;18;08
Judge Little
So and do you ever have the parent that has the appointed, that has the retained counsel pay for a guardian ad litem because that's come up and,

00;44;18;11 - 00;44;42;08
Judge Snyder
Well, most of the minor resolving through mediation. So, I've not had occasionally you'll have that contested case that's like something from a TV made for TV movie. Yes. That, you know, their forum shopped, you found. I've been to other counties and other courts and everybody has those kinds of cases, and, there's a guardian ad litem a needed.

00;44;42;08 - 00;44;49;13
Judge Snyder
And I've appointed a guardian ad litem and I've ordered the cost split between the parties. And because that's what's best for the child.

00;44;49;13 - 00;45;06;15
Judge Little
Sometimes they'll say, well, you know, they've paid and so but, but, and there's so many cases where you need a guardian in litem. This case also they're there. Council will not allow IV unless it's defendants in neglect. And then the other piece of that where we see a lot of grandparents and aunts and uncles, they get involved.

00;45;06;17 - 00;45;28;05
Judge Little
And then the AOC will not pay for their representation, which I understand that. But if they're unable to hire and the grandparent is the person that's, had the custody, that's also another piece of the puzzle where they have to go out and hire. But, you know, that that's also a mediation issue. Hopefully that can be worked out.

00;45;28;08 - 00;45;53;02
Judge Snyder
I think it's critical in the because I was on the Indigent Representation Task Force that met for, what, 18 months, that it's very critical that we get as a judge. We have the affidavits filled out vacant by the, litigants that we assess the administrative fee, the partial indigent attorney fee when it's appropriate. And that's a not a cookie cutter issue either. It's depends. It depends on the litigant themselves.

00;45;53;02 - 00;46;08;05
Host
So so let's talk a little bit about things that are different in juvenile court than in, circuit court or Chancery court or General Sessions court. So how is privacy handled differently in juvenile court versus other courts?

00;46;08;07 - 00;46;46;14
Judge Michael 
Confidentiality. Welfare cases are closed, courts closed court hearings. And they need to be the family needs to be protected from the allegations that are made in public. The children don't need to be targeted, by the allegations that are made. So those proceedings are closed to the public. And there is actually, criminal statute if a party to the proceeding releases the information to the public, they can be charged. It may be a misdemeanor, I think 11 months, 29 days of.

00;46;46;15 - 00;46;47;09
Judge Snyder
Class A misdemeanor.

00;46;47;11 - 00;47;16;19
Judge Michael 
Yeah. Class A misdemeanor. So the state's very serious about those proceedings. Juvenile proceedings are different. And, it's kind of an odd mix of openness and and confidentiality. Technically, juvenile delinquency proceedings are open to the public, but if the child is under 14, the only parties that can access the record are parties with an interest, the lawyers, the litigants, the defendant himself.

00;47;16;19 - 00;47;32;11
Judge Michael 
Nobody else can get it. You can sit in court and listen, but you can't get the record. And then the second part of the statute, if you're over 14 and you've committed a certain level of felonies, those records are public. So it's a mishmash of confidentiality.

00;47;32;13 - 00;47;33;17
Judge Irwin
Child support’s public.

00;47;33;17 - 00;47;39;01
Judge Michael 
Or child supports public record. That's right. Technically, custody visitation is to. So Yeah.

00;47;39;01 - 00;48;00;18
Judge Little
But how many times have you told a lawyer we don't have a jury here. That's the other thing is a misconception is that we don't have a jury. And sometimes lawyers will, and they have the right to certainly make a record for their appeal. But, every now and then, I'll have to remind them, you know, this is a, I'm your Trier of fact here.

00;48;00;18 - 00;48;23;29
Judge Little
And there's not a jury, especially those that are usually retained, that are used to doing that. But there would not be a jury in juvenile court proceedings. That doesn't mean when it goes up on appeal that they, wouldn't, that eventually they might have some opportunity. But but as it stands with, with our courts, we do not have that.

00;48;23;29 - 00;48;35;16
Judge Little
People seem to think it's kind of like what you see on TV and, it's not like that. And we don't and it's it's not glamorous. It is life. It hits you right in the face.

00;48;35;20 - 00;48;38;05
Judge Irwin
Not not many Perry Mason moment. No.

00;48;38;06 - 00;48;39;19
Judge Snyder
Not really. Or Matlock.

00;48;39;19 - 00;49;03;17
Host
Yeah. So the there are the Tennessee Rules of Juvenile Procedure, which are available for free on the website and teen courts. But which rules do you see judges or lawyers tripping up on the most that they've come in. They've been represented. And just like the juvenile court doesn't work the same as civil procedure laws or criminal procedure laws, is there a couple we can point to? They sort of make sure you read the rules of juvenile procedure.

00;49;03;24 - 00;49;11;05
Judge Irwin
I have lawyers that practice primarily in circuit court that come down and get really hung up on a lot of formal discovery.

00;49;11;05 - 00;49;11;18
Judge Little
Yes.

00;49;11;21 - 00;49;33;19
Judge Irwin
Which I'm not too interested in. I'll play the discovery rules, which most of our juvenile court discovery rules just refer you back to the rules of civil procedure. And then I'm perfectly capable of playing the game, but I'm not interested. I've got to move a lot faster. I don't have the luxury of hearing a six week divorce trial in juvenile court.

00;49;33;21 - 00;49;54;03
Judge Irwin
I want to find out if there's dependents neglect. If not, move on. I want to go through Judge Ashes 15 factors of best interest in a custody case and move on. And I don't want a whole lot else. I don't have time to, figure out how much dad's going to be on mom or mom's going to be on dad.

00;49;54;08 - 00;50;21;15
Judge Irwin
I have my child support. Magistrates handle that. And that's a big part of what we do, too. I have three magistrates at work every day on unmarried parents. Child support. There's one magistrate, Knox County, that does the married folks child support. That gives you a state of family life. Our little nuclear family are Jetsons type family is not the norm anymore.

00;50;21;17 - 00;50;46;22
Judge Irwin
So we have a large presence in our county from the Boys and Girls Club, and 83% of the families they serve are nontraditional families, 83%. And, that's probably, in our courts, I can't imagine too often we see both parents. That's just, that's rare.

00;50;46;25 - 00;50;47;23
Judge Snyder
Yeah, correct.

00;50;47;26 - 00;50;49;17
Judge Michael 
A lot of times I don't see any parent.

00;50;49;19 - 00;50;54;06
Judge Irwin
A lot of times it's grandparents. Yes, it is rough. That's rough thing to ask a grandparent to do.

00;50;54;13 - 00;50;54;22
Judge Michael 
Yeah.

00;50;54;28 - 00;51;02;25
Host
So just to clarify too. So we talked a little bit about juvenile court decisions being appealed where they appeal to?

00;51;02;27 - 00;51;27;01
Judge Little
That's the quagmire. And what do you do when a lawyer comes in and has their notice of appeal? And it's going to the wrong court and the clerk comes and goes, this is this is the wrong place. That's what we're looking for. Oh no, no, no, no, I mean, it's it's, you know, but termination of parental rights goes up to the Court of Appeals, and, and I think that's obvious, as.

00;51;27;01 - 00;51;30;08
Judge Irwin
Does unmarried parent visitation, as does child support.

00;51;30;11 - 00;52;03;21
Judge Little
But dependency and neglect, basically custody or dependency neglect cases through DCS or even if there's a finding of severe abuse, they have, if we make that finding, they can appeal that decision. Those go to circuit court. What, you know, who determines that? It's difficult and you pretty if you're going to be an attorney practicing in juvenile court, it is a if you're not up on, the rules.

00;52;03;21 - 00;52;23;20
Judge Little
And they are so different from any other court, you you have to really know what you're doing when you walk in the door because they always say, we speak our own language. Everything has a CFT, TCM, and everything has an initial and we speak in a different language. And we also have a whole lot of, different rules.

00;52;23;20 - 00;52;43;16
Judge Little
And, if you don't know those things when you're coming in, it's it's it's not a it's not a quick learn because it's taking us, a long time sitting here to get to the point where we're able to, you know, work through those issues. And I think, experience is the is the one thing you cannot substitute.

00;52;43;16 - 00;52;51;18
Judge Little
So, attorneys just need to look at those rules before they start appealing and going to the wrong courts.

00;52;51;20 - 00;53;16;22
Judge Irwin
It's not really that hard. Title 36 goes to the Court of Appeals straight from juvenile court, right? A magistrate can't hear a case, and it can go to the Court of Appeals. It requires intervention by the elected judge. So that's title 36. Title 37. If you have magistrates, if you're a bigger county, who could go magistrate to judge to the circuit court level, to the Court of appeals.

00;53;16;22 - 00;53;42;25
Judge Irwin
And that's the breakdown in the statute. And I think that at least one of those steps in title 37 is unnecessary. I don't think I should be rehearing a case where a magistrate with 30 years of experience, who's also a lawyer, I don't think I should have to rehear it before it goes to circuit court. That's getting three bites of the apple before you have an appeal. I'd like to see that change. I don't know that it will.

00;53;42;25 - 00;54;05;02
Judge Michael 
And one of the problems we have with that law, the abuse and neglect and delinquency cases going to circuit when they go up on appeal and the opinion comes back, we don't get the opinion the circuit court does. So we're not getting direction from the appellate court on our child support, welfare cases and our delinquency cases. And that's my frustration.

00;54;05;02 - 00;54;27;09
Judge Michael 
I would like to get more guidance on certain issues. For instance, in a transfer hearing, a transfer hearing is not appealable. You can only appeal the transfer hearing by preserving the constitutionality after conviction. So you have to go to criminal court, be convicted as an adult, and then take your appeal.

00;54;27;14 - 00;54;29;23
Judge Irwin
Rarely happens rarely.

00;54;29;25 - 00;55;06;20
Judge Little
And I think the one thing that if we leave with anything other than, people in maybe learning and being enlightened by juvenile court, is this that as juvenile court judges the decisions. And this is from the words of Judge Walter Baker Harris, the decisions that we make every day could affect a child's life forever. And we can't have a bad day because, that child, could come back later and, and explain to you what that decision that you made did to them.

00;55;06;20 - 00;55;32;08
Judge Little
So I take that very seriously. I think that's one of the most important things a juvenile court judge needs to know is that we have to go in every day fresh and ready, because every child deserves a Trier effect and someone who'll listen because if we don't do the right thing, we're not dealing with, we're dealing with children and children's lives.

00;55;32;08 - 00;55;42;25
Judge Little
And I think that's where a juvenile court is the most important court in the in the, in the court system. And that's that's, spoken from the heart.

00;55;42;27 - 00;55;46;13
Host
Thanks to everyone for joining us for this episode of Tennessee Court Talk.

00;55;46;20 - 00;55;47;15
Judge Michael 
Thank you. Thank you.